I generally believe that these things work to scum's benefit for the short term, but give town an advantage in the long term; town winning will frequently depend on someone being able to take a step back, recognizing that something like that happened, and pointing it out for everyone to recognize.

Sure, if the day had gone on much longer, scum might have found a distraction with which to stage a scene wagon derail attempt. Such an attempt might even have succeeded. But there was more than enough smoke around scene that I have little doubt we would've lynched him eventually, seen his flip, and could then analyze such a derail attempt, for an easy second scum scalp.

I'm guessing that if I give you scumpoints for this, you're just going to follow HSL's playbook and claim your scum game is much more advanced than that, eh?
*gives you scumpoints anyway*

This at the same time rings true, yet doesn't at all mesh with how I remember you from #52.

*ponders*
I find reading you troublesome, which is annoying, given your wagon status. I'd wager there's two, and quite possibly three town between flub, Bookwyrm and trent (scary thought: a bookwyrm-trent mafia team! Brrr; I'll now be worrying about that scenario for many hours...), and I see them all as extremely experienced. If this was the endgame, I'd probably vote for you just on that basis, as I've learned that my own reads suck. I have a little voice saying that I was right on scene, so I should totally go with my gut, but eh - hubris.

So let's see... where do we go from here. Hmm. Do you have thoughts on Ixam? And what would you say is your most important contribution to the game so far?

I've observed HSL quite a lot since I first started playing. That still doesn't mean I'll read him correctly (as I reread a bit of #52 to get a better bearing on mchack, I also remembered that I bought HSL's scum game there until the very end), but his nitpicking at least is regular play. I have him as a slight scum lean due to that nitpicking feeling a bit ... restrained to me in this game compared to previous ones (though at the same time more vehement than I'm used to? (I hope that makes sense; he doesn't follow through as much as I'd expect, yet he stabs deeper or something...)). To be fair, I could plausibly feel that just because I haven't been on the receiving end so much, or maybe it's the feeling under the weather thing which he mentioned in one of the recent posts that I've only skimmed so far.

I do notice that you're not saying much about SPF in your answer. I know you gave him a bunch of town points in #557, but does his attitude toward HSL ring true to you?

Who has the most? (It's flub isn't it? I just know it's flub. No wonder he is lock town!)

I can very easily imagine that scum - being certain that the doctor claim wasn't true - would feel in their bones that scene was going down. Jumping on him right away in order to gain town credit would seem to be the best way for them to salvage something from it. And yes, smart scum would find some new reasons to make that bus believable.

I hope you'll feel better soon, and that regardless of which team you're on, it won't affect your play and your enjoyment in the game too much!

Deja vu, but I have no idea what this is about. For someone who's absolutely not up to date with pop culture, could you please clarify if this is in any way relevant to the game?

Is this bit about Ixam in response to anything in particular?
Do you see Ixam's behaviour as AI?

Bleh. And here I was thinking I might actually get to scumread you! ('course, as you keep reminding everyone, your scum game is maybe really just that good?)

Oh, and there I'm all caught up again.

vote Ixam

Some - any! - contribution might get me to back off there, but for the moment I'd rather cut the dead wood now while we have some elbow room, rather than later.
Since there's been extremely little interest in his lack of play (can anyone explain why?), I don't expect that wagon to go anywhere. If it indeed doesn't, I should have a decent amount of time during the day tomorrow for rereading and evaluating if I'd prefer joining mchack or HSL's wagon. Not particularly opposed to either, but too tired right now to feel like I could make a good decision.

Joe, I wonder why you always attack me only after I mention you.

Other times you seem to mostly not pay attention to me and the moment I turn my eye toward you, you are here in full swing mafia-reading me and twisting my posts to fit your case, err, I mean "interpolating", as you call it, because it is always the most honest thing in mafia to "interpolate" instead of quote.

D1 you seemed to have little issue with me but as soon as I questioned your RVS vote on the biggest wagon I was suddenly bad for not voting and was giving you creeps. Now again, right after I mention you I get voted in your next post (your first vote since you revoted scene on my beckons btw, mr. "you-vote-too-little").

I wonder if there is some mafia term that would describe your behaviour.

Heh.

Do you know who called me out last game for not voting? Lift and flub, both mafia players.
Incidentally in recent days I was reading through G15 (your game btw.) where I said things like this (the part about me not voting the whole Day at all).
For someone who frequently recalls older games and recently even mentioned events from game 8 (that's from 2011) you seem to be suddenly quite forgetful.

I am not meh. At worst I am "whatever".

Peculiar choice of the two.
And what does negative even mean?

What?

I've had this sequence from the start of D2 in my "to judge" notes for a while now, and I keep going back and forth over it, coming from the tack: Was this gauging the potential for scene's claim being believed?

Anyone have a clear opinion on it?
I'd specifically like to hear from Joe, from trent, and - because why not? - from Ixam.

I am not sure I understand what you are wanting to know, could you please elaborate?

Are you referring to the quotes of SirPrimalform that you listed and whether he was gauging scene's truthfulness in his claim or if he was doing something else? I saw it as SirPrimalform saying he thought scene should have immediately been mod killed for quoting his PM as it's listed in the OP as a no no, and later when scene posted that he was on his final warning it gave SirPrimalform pause as it was something that was possible but he still didn't believe scene was being truthful.

If that's not what you were wanting my opinion on please let me know exactly what you are wanting to know.

What if he said his scum play is much less advanced than that?

Thanks. I am most interested if it is usual that there seem to be fairly little amount of conclusions drawn from those question as here it seems there is quite a lot of it but they are rarely followed by any action (not necessary vote but at least calling someone scummy).

Yeah, I don't think SPF is mafia. For his scene interactions and I couldn't say I saw anything scummy from him so far.
The argument between HSL and SPF seem too nitpicky from both side to me to really interest me but it doesn't make it necessarilly scummy. I know well enough how hung can SPF get when he thinks he found mafia as town so I can't tell it makes him scummy.

SirPrimalform. Might be surprising but last game he was 3rd or so as well, so not that strange I guess.
Or if I was to cheat and add Poppy's posts to my own, it would be me by far. ;-)

Vote Count

mchack - 3: Ixam, flubbucket, Bookwyrm
HypersomniacLive - 2: SPF, mchack
Vitek - 1: Joe
Ixam - 1: gogtrial

Not voting - 3: HSL, trent, Vitek

10 players. 6 to lynch

*sorry for the monster post. it organically grew and grew with each refresh after doing the re-read(s)*
*edit "before" post: ok this didn't go through (too big or format errors?) and I almost gave up on it then, because it's already so late, and I'm sure anymore it's that smart of a post anyway. But then I thought. Hey it might be crap but spend way more time, than I'm willing to admit for it (5 hours) and I don't want to scrap it and revise in the morning, because that's even more time spent. I wrote it so I post it. :P ... ok made a pause and shortened the quotes somewhat*
* ok third try. I'm really angry now. it has to be a tag somewhere but I can't find it. How many lines are possible? dangit, I'll just try the first part only. and go to bed.

I've been meaning to get back to that now that we have more flips, so I just re-read the EoD1 again (more thorough this time than the first):

around 45 minutes left
#329 scene (scum) falseclaims (after HSL says in #326 @supplementscene, I see your light on. Silence's is definitely not the path that may get you to live.)
(At that time he is at L-1 with these votes: JoeSapphire, gogtrial, Lifthrasil, dedoporno, SirPrimalform, flubbucket)
#330 flub (town) asks about self protecting. [Likely does not see a pm copy there.]
#332 dedo (town) unvotes saying he's not ok with it though (suggesting pm copy)
#334 mchack (town :P) moves vote from lift to SPf trying to start an alternative wagon after seing the claim (never to be seen again that day, only coming back to it at nightfall to read what happened)
#335 bookwyrm (unknown) votes scene putting him at L-1 again, without saying why
#336 trent (unkown) doesn't know what dedo meant and asks him about it (obviously not seing a pm copy there)
#337 HSL (unknown) unvotes Joe and coaches flub to answer the question and asks dedo (who unvoted) "I assume you believe the claim. What's your second choice now?"
#338 dedo (town) says pretty much anyone (well SPf, Dessimu, Joe or wyrm) but not mchack (town) and lift (town)
25mins left
#340 dedo (town) worries why trent or HSL haven't seen what he saw (pm copy)
#341 flub (town) states it's been 20 mins since he asked scene (scum) if he could self protect
#342 HSL (unkown) says he thinks he sees the same as dedo but not saying what it is. Also that he'd vote the same people but not Joe (interestingly) + asks bookwyrm why he voted after the claim + asking scene a second time to answer flub
#344 trent (unknown) still doesn't get what dedo is suggesting
#345 scene (scum) says "That's the PM, it didn't specify" claiming a) pm copy as dedo suggested & b) it didn't include info about self-protect
#346 HSL (unknown) votes SPf and asks "who else?" obviously now convinced it was a pm copy
#347 scene (scum) tries to vote SPf forgetting to bold
#348 dedo (town) answers trent that he's worried about him not seeing what he sees
#349 wyrm (unknown) says he voted scene after claim because, a) could be fake b) could be pm copy c) should've known if he can self-protect [dangit, wyrm after re-reading this post, I'm really tempted to put you back into my town pile. It is such a strong strong hint. Putting your buddy to L-1 and giving those reasons? ballsy? or just town]
#350 vitek (unknown) decides not to lynch scene
#353 trent (unknown) answers dedo, he still doesn't know what dedo means. The formating is in the op. Seems to think fake claim.
10 mins left
#355 wyrm (unknown) makes his point again but now tends to believe pm copy (even saying it was probably by mistake) [because vitek and dedo? why did he leave out HSL in that list?] and so either lynch or modkill but still tells us that scene answered the question about self-protecting wrongly. [Still doesn't apreciate that the two are mutually exclusive: it can either be pm copy or fake but not both. - ah welcome back at my possibly scum list ;)]
#356 flub (town) drives the point to dedo that knowing whether one can selfprotect is basic knowledge.
#358 vitek (unknown) if only he claimed sooner, could be false claim but I don't know
#360 dedo (town) do you really think scene could come up with a false claim that is so near-perfect
#361 HSL (unknown) tells scene to bold his vote to count, asks vitek who he'd vote?
#362 vitek (unknown) doesn't think scene could falseclaim like that [heh. he proved you wrong now did he? Or did you know all along it was a falseclaim?]
#363 scene (scum) votes SPf now even in bold
5 mins bump
#367 vitek (unknown) no last second votes
#369 dedo (town) asks trent if he'll hammer
#370 trent (unknown) says he doesn't believe the claim but doesn't want to chance lynching the doctor
#371 HSL (unknown) asks vitek why he hasn't put up alternatives to scene earlier
#372 Joe (unknown) asks HSL to hammer after the deadline. thinks the claim looks wrong, but doesn't know
1 minute left
#374 Lift (Town) states how he intentionally leaves the vote on scene since it's either pm copy -> modkill or fake
#375 Vitek (unknown) takes the time to answer HSL and bookwyrm but does not vote scene or anyone
#376 HSL (unknown) takes time to answer Joe but does not vote
#377 Bookwyrm (unknown) drives the point one more time in re-iterating Lift: "Either he copied or he lied." [argh, it's the perfect condensation. town again]
#378 scene (scum) Any lynch of unconfirmed better than no lynch [thinks himself confirmed]
#379 D1 end

so of those _on_ scenes wagon I feel town points should be rewarded to (Lift and flub are a given) bookwyrm (yep, go ahead an shiv me, but you are town to me) and I guess Joe (was unsure about him before because he only joined post-claim discussion 1 min before deadline , but he did actually ask for a hammer (not what scum would do in my book) so, I guess town points are due)
but not for gogtrial nor SPf (because actually not there at EoD1 after claim - so we can't know if they'd have hopped off)

so of those _off_ scenes wagon I feel scum points should be rewarded to (dedo is given) HSL (very much so) and Vitek (less but aswell)
but not for trent (why? he doesn't feel scummy but rather honestly stumped at why dedo went off the wagon; and also there is likely 3 scum, so he'd be the one to many)

So who's missing in all this? dessimu/Ixam hmm... he might actually make a much better partner for HSL and scene than bookwyrm (or vitek? not sure about that)

-> ok hsl, thank you for making me go through all that again. My new favorite scum team is HSL + Ixam(or vitek) (+scene) (based on EoD1)

(this turned out longer than I planned but it made me suspect someone new so that's nice. off to do a re-read of Ixam ... ok back from the re-read :P yep nothing at all speaking against him being the third scum... oh right re-reads dessimu, there was that. But it's just a bit of distancing at the start of game without even having a vote cast ... oh right re-reads scene. ok well there was a vote cast but interestingly scene also cast a vote on vitek as alternative wagon to himself before his claim, so that truely makes me less inclined to think vitek is his buddy. (or should it be actually more? as a final distancing move by scene before going down D1? argh. )

ok, right now my scumpicks are ++HSL +Ixam or +Vitek but _not_ --flub, -bookwyrm, SPf, gogtrial, trent, Joe (well unsure about Joe to be honest, though for now, I townpile him)

fair enough. Never said I'm good at mafia, but I do get frightened, that scum might slip away when we wait too long albeit being reasonably sure of having found scum. I've seen more No-lynch deadlines than last minute lynches in my mafia career if I remember correctly. Right now I'm thinking about that game where I was mason with zfr and we had you down as scum and only the hammer was missing and somehow it didn't go through, although we thought it did (non bolded? can't remember) and you actually were scum (although recruited) and I got shot at night and ... let's say it's been traumatic. I don't want to experience that again. ;)

If I'm that sure we found scum, I always hope we achieve lynch as fast as possible. By the way, I've been meaning to ask. What's it that you can't talk about now, that you could've yesterday? (aside from coaching scene and talking about cops with lift, of course ;P)

if that someone hasn't been nightkilled before being able to take that step back. Last game was a scum win, although it appeared obvious to me (dead scum), that we were going down. I think it was in no small amount due to scum!lift just talking and talking his way to the win, while always being one of the highest scumreads around. And noone taking that step back. (maybe that special someone that could've, got shot at night)

That was simply a reference to the conversation you had with HSL. I try and make jokes when I can. Especially when they are true and you are analytical and observant.
I'll gladly take scumpoints from you for pointing it out, but it is obvious to anyone anyway. You appear to be even less scummy than flub and he is confirmed by the mod. That's no small feat. Have you even been scumread once this game? Guess that means you won't be with us very long (just remember what I said about people known to be able to take a step back :P), but credit were credit is due.

(My (scum)game is not at all advanced, btw so you won't ever hear me claiming anything like that)

I say it's three town in flub, bookwyrm and trent. (yes I know I made the second 180 on wyrm now, but I just don't have HSLs vivid imagination to think wyrm scum after re-reading the End of D1)

well, as a matter of fact (in this post up above) I do. Ixam might be scum. or not. that's it really. But I found it astonishing that you brought him up just when I was moving him into my scumlist (on my own, before reading your post)

My most important contribution was ... hey, that's a mean question, now I think I haven't really contributed anything ... but I did. I'm sure I did. There is Information in every Post you said. The more Posts the better for town you said. Here, I almost have 30 posts now. :P

No way, you're more of a Chico.

LOL - friends don't let friends drunk post Mafia ;) Though I'm guilty of violating that rule right now. I actually kind of like this post. You get the slow obvious clap for saying you like Flub (heh) and PrimalForm and while I may argue with some of your other picks for Town / Scum your reasoning isn't awful. In fact, your "hit list" of possible mafia / town reads almost like something that I'd post if I were trying to suss out iterations of possible teams

I don't agree totally with the names on each side, but I get what you're trying to do (figure out a "team" of scum players, given what they might be trying to do with their votes and posts).

Like you I totally agree about Joe - I have an "unread" of him - not sure at all.

Don't get too frightened - if you're town vanilla it's your job to die and give others hints with your wagon. I'm going to keep my vote on you for now but I'll have this post and your thoughts in mind when (if) your flips comes and if I'm still around to vote.

Correct!

My avatar is Bernard Black, main character of a nearly 20 year old sitcom (oh man, I'm old) called Black Books.

No, it's not relevant to the game, just indulging Flub. :P

Absolutely not, I was suggesting that he should have been modkilled already if we were to believe him and thus he was 99% proven to be lying. I'm not sure how you managed to interpret it any other way really?

I love you too Chico. ;D

Not at all surprising, I'm super lazy and hate constructing large posts.

TL;OS (=only skimmed)

I noticed the part in my quote and are you aware he asked him to hammer AFTER deadline? And then when deadline passed he asked him again to do it?
It was in reference to G53 where HSL only voted after deadline and we no-lynched D1 so I would say it wasn't actual request for hammer.
Instead it means only post he made during the hectic deadline was joke and otherwise haven't contributed even though it seems he was around.

yep, I was perfectly aware of that jab. HSL got a lot of flak for voting just after deadline in that game - and I found it incredibly funny from Joe to make that joke in such stressful a time but all in all NAI. (the joke that is)

I try and imagine JOE being scene's buddy having an RVS vote on scene already, re-voting scene before the claim just to make sure (the hokey-pokey thing) and then right at the end of day with everyone on edge try and push HSL to hammer by reminding him of what happened last time he waited just a bit too long (and in time so that HSL answers him before Dayend so there would have been time enough for HSL(or you) to hammer) but I'm not really seeing it.

Might be he's just that bus-happy, but I'm finding HSL being scum with scene just much more plausible than Joe when looking at all this.
If anything it would have to be HSL + Joe + scene as scum team. which might actually work. Joe knowing HSL won't hammer could do this easily and however scene resolves (believed or lynched, there would be a scum on each side surviving the aftermath. hmm. I kinda like this thought, but at the same time I find that scum probably won't be this well concerted on D1)

Swift catch up. I'll intend to do a regular detailed response later today, if on a thorough reread I find that I have things to question and/or respond to still.
I can't imagine Joe being scene's buddy either. Not so much for the EoD hammer call (though that strengthens it), as for the way he stayed on the wagon all the way to the end. It would've been trivial for him to state "my vote was RVS, and I'm not yet convinced enough about scene to stay on". Instead he did an 'explicit' (well, for Joe-standards) "I'm good where I am" post once scene's wagon took off. ('course, he could be SK-scum, but that still basically goes for everyone.)
I've had Lift and SPF as possible scum buddies bussing, but Lift got taken out of the running, and Vitek does make a compelling argument on SPF's townness. (@trent, @bookwyrm, @flub: do you find Vitek's argument to be solid as well?)

scene+Vitek+SPF? that would make sense perhaps with the early scene/Poppy interactions. (I imagine Vitek's scum game is near flawless?) Wouldn't expect the Vitek-SPF interactions from scum, but that might of course be why they'd play like that. Need to ponder this - it feels too shiny.

I find the scene+HSL+Joe concept intriguing as well. I think I recall both Joe pushing on HSL, as HSL pushing on Joe, but no real interactions. (Reread fodder.)

Are there roles / possible twists that would fit with Ixam just ignoring everything being asked of him? mchack and Joe have now put him in their "could lynch" category as well, but everyone else keeps ignoring him as much as he keeps ignoring all of us.

trent: yes, that's indeed what I was wanting. So you see SPF's reaction there as town?