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MightyPinecone: And yes, I know there was a time before smartphones; just as there was a time before just about every other piece of technology we now have...
That's a nice way of simply ignoring the truth which was implied in my comment: if people didn't need a phone in the pre-mobile era...they also don't really need a phone now - they only think they do.
You even mention the real "problem" in your comment: having to do without a mobile would be a "very inconvenient option".
Says it all, really.

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MightyPinecone: Yes, and if the venue doesn't apply this kind of restriction, I also have the option to both go to the event, and not hand over my phone...
But most (all?) venues have these restrictions...many simply don't act on them when it comes to smartphones.

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MightyPinecone: The key lies in making such behaviour socially unacceptable, as it already is in many venues, rather than outright forcing people to hand over their phones.
So, on the one hand you are of the opinion that people's use of their mobiles in certain situations should be seen as socially unacceptable behaviour...but on the other hand we should just ignore that kind of behaviour?

That's like saying murdering people is really bad behaviour, and we should name and shame murderers for doing it, but we shouldn't try to keep them from killing in the first place.

Exaggerated comparison, you say? Of course...but the logic behind is the same.

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MightyPinecone: I've never been searched for a camera or phone or other recording device when going to [...] concerts.
You've never been frisked before concerts?
I start to have serious doubts that you ever attended a concert.

But I'm willing to give you this: the venues are responsible, too - because they don't restrict you from entering with a mobile in your pocket.
On the other hand: try to enter a venue (cinema, theater, concert hall, etc.) with a videocam.
See, whether they let you bring that specifically designated device for audio/videorecordings to the venue.
Talk about double standards, huh?

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MightyPinecone: In these setting the resulting recording is likely to be absolutely shit, anyway, so in this case its more about the audience experience than protecting copyright of the content producers.
Exactly, but because the sound on the bootlegged video is shitty anyway - we should just accept it when assholes ruin our expensively paid live experience?
Got it.
And I disagree.

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tinyE: I guess bringing a boom mike alone would be ok, as long as you don't bring a recording device along with it.
https://www.gog.com/upload/forum/2019/05/4c2dad00a736aa0616b0e3531485b29610a2f17c.jpg
https://i.stack.imgur.com/RehDA.jpg ;)
Post edited May 08, 2019 by BreOl72
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MightyPinecone: And yes, I know there was a time before smartphones; just as there was a time before just about every other piece of technology we now have...
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BreOl72: That's a nice way of simply ignoring the truth which was implied in my comment: if people didn't need a phone in the pre-mobile era...they also don't really need a phone now - they only think they do.
The point was to show what a crap response the "people didn't use to need this" really is. We've been able to make it without the wast majority of the technology we use today. Our needs are changing.

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BreOl72: You even mention the real "problem" in your comment: having to do without a mobile would be a "very inconvenient option".
Says it all, really.
Yes, and very inconvenient solutions are not good solutions.

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MightyPinecone: Yes, and if the venue doesn't apply this kind of restriction, I also have the option to both go to the event, and not hand over my phone...
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BreOl72: But most (all?) venues have these restrictions...many simply don't act on them when it comes to smartphones.
I have don't have access to many ticket around me at the moments, but no, most venues I've been to have no "no smartphones allowed" rules.

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MightyPinecone: The key lies in making such behaviour socially unacceptable, as it already is in many venues, rather than outright forcing people to hand over their phones.
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BreOl72: So, on the one hand you are of the opinion that people's use of their mobiles in certain situations should be seen as socially unacceptable behaviour...but on the other hand we should just ignore that kind of behaviour?

That's like saying murdering people is really bad behaviour, and we should name and shame murderers for doing it, but we shouldn't try to keep them from killing in the first place.

Exaggerated comparison, you say? Of course...but the logic behind is the same.
Not everything that people shouldn't do needs to be forbidden or physically restricted. There are a ton of behaviour that we don't accept in society without such measures being taken. You should't cough straight into the face of another, yet there is no law against it. You shouldn't cut in queue, yet there is no law against it. If people break these convention they will be told off (assuming there is someone with a little backbone around). Thus they are enforced.

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MightyPinecone: I've never been searched for a camera or phone or other recording device when going to [...] concerts.
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BreOl72: You've never been frisked before concerts?
I start to have serious doubts that you ever attended a concert.
I've only really been frisked at festivals and sport events, and in neither case where they interested in cellphones, but rather weapons or flares or the likes. I've only been to a rather limited number of pop concerts dedicated to one act. Maybe it's more common there.

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BreOl72: But I'm willing to give you this: the venues are responsible, too - because they don't restrict you from entering with a mobile in your pocket.
On the other hand: try to enter a venue (cinema, theater, concert hall, etc.) with a videocam.
See, whether they let you bring that specifically designated device for audio/videorecordings to the venue.
Talk about double standards, huh?
Yes, because a video cam doesn't have the same range of uses, as we've already discussed.

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MightyPinecone: In these setting the resulting recording is likely to be absolutely shit, anyway, so in this case its more about the audience experience than protecting copyright of the content producers.
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BreOl72: Exactly, but because the sound on the bootlegged video is shitty anyway - we should just accept it when assholes ruin our expensively paid live experience?
Got it.
And I disagree.
Pop concerts are the main situation where I find that it will be difficult to stop people from using their smartphones, as the constantly moving and very crowded nature of those events make it difficult to communicate, or enforce any kind of responsibility for ones actions. I know there are plenty of people who are getting away with acting like douches at such events, in all kinds of ways. My point wasn't that the audience experience doesn't matter, but rather that it's the main issue in such situations.

But yes, I've also got it, we disagree.
Post edited May 08, 2019 by MightyPinecone
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MightyPinecone: And yes, I know there was a time before smartphones; just as there was a time before just about every other piece of technology we now have...
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BreOl72: That's a nice way of simply ignoring the truth which was implied in my comment: if people didn't need a phone in the pre-mobile era...they also don't really need a phone now - they only think they do.
You even mention the real "problem" in your comment: having to do without a mobile would be a "very inconvenient option".
Says it all, really.
We also don't NEED cars/vehicles for personal use....we can just walk everywhere(YES, even for many miles. If our ancestors could do it so can we). We also don't NEED televisions/radio for news/etc...people did just fine with newspapers(and even town criers) at one point.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that we shouldn't ban/limit devices just because some might find them to be unnecessary/some might not have a use(emergencies/etc) for them.

Also, as others like pinecone have said: Some things(in this case holding up phones/etc in theaters/venues) that others find bad/distasteful can be shunned/discouraged/handled by society just fine without rules in place to prevent such. And fwiw i'd rather have that than a law telling me not to do something with some sort of threat(legal/otherwise) behind it to "comply or else get in trouble/don't partake in said event/etc".
Post edited May 08, 2019 by GameRager
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MightyPinecone: Our needs are changing.
Small correction: for some of us, their "perceived needs" are changing.
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MightyPinecone: Yes, and very inconvenient solutions are not good solutions.
And for some of us, the more convenient solutions preferred by a few, aren't necessarily seen as the better solutions for all of us.
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MightyPinecone: I have don't have access to many ticket around me at the moments, but no, most venues I've been to have no "no smartphones allowed" rules.
That may be, but most (all?) venues forbid taking photos and audio/videorecordings - as has already been stated.

And smartphones are able to do these things.

Apart from that (and I addressed that also already):
I put a part of the blame on the venues because:

1) they're not updating their ToS to include smartphones, and
2) they're not barring the entrance for people with smartphones.

Of course: the bringing of smartphones is not the real problem at hand - it's their usage that's the problem.

I mean: I bring my smartphone to the cinema, too - but I turn it off during the movie.
Poses no problem for anyone around me.
But don't get me started on those who don't turn theirs off.

Let's be honest - the whole thing is a societal problem - based on the ever growing lack of upbringing.
And that won't ever get better again, if we just let people act in the way they want, without any repercussions for them.
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MightyPinecone: You should't cough straight into the face of another, yet there is no law against it.
You shouldn't cut in queue, yet there is no law against it.
If people break these convention they will be told off (assuming there is someone with a little backbone around). Thus they are enforced.
Again, you wouldn't need to "tell anybody off" (if you have the necessary "backbone"), if the ToS would be followed and/or properly enforced.

Also: the "there's no law against it"-bit must be a joke...because there are no distinct "laws against coughing in someone's face", everybody can do it?
What's with bodily harm? I could sue you for coughing deliberately in my face - especially if you're sick at that moment.
The outcome might be unsure - but I could do it.
You are aware of that?

And besides (and to return to the topic): there are laws at hand already, on which the ToS of concert venues, etc. are based upon.

It wouldn't make much sense to threaten someone to get "thrown out" of a venue, if there were no laws that allowed the owners of the venue doing that.

Edit: btw - what's with the problem of someone filming me at a concert without my consent and then uploading that film on YT?
Fun fact: I have a "right on my own picture"...that's a personal right. Enforceable by law.
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MightyPinecone: Maybe it's more common there (concerts).
You bet it is. But as I said already: unfortunately they let you bring your mobile.
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MightyPinecone: Yes, because a video cam doesn't have the same range of uses, as we've already discussed.
Exactly. The mobile delivers the full practical extent of two to three other devices, which are strictly forbidden in a concert...so, following any logic, it should be forbidden, too.
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MightyPinecone: Pop concerts are the main situation where I find that it will be difficult to stop people from using their smartphones...
Which is the reason why we should keep them from bringing their mobiles.
We kind of keep circling around this point, don't you think?

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MightyPinecone: My point wasn't that the audience experience doesn't matter, but rather that it's the main issue in such situations.
With "such situations" you mean the rock/pop concerts?
Yeah. There it is the main issue.
And there it matters. Because people paid hard earned money to have an undisturbed experience.
You said you aren't a concert goer - so it's easy for you to say "oh that's no biggy!"
But for those of us who enjoy(ed) going to concerts, it's definitely a huge PITA.
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MightyPinecone: But yes, I've also got it, we disagree.
I agree with that statement. ;)
Post edited May 08, 2019 by BreOl72
It wouldn't be necessary if the audiences had a minimum level of self-control, which they apparently don't. So the decision is up to the performer.
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GameRager: Some don't share it though(yes many do but not all). Some just take such pics/video to save as memories....also quality on phones is going up every day so not all recordings are cr*p quality.
Yes, the quality is better, but not good enough to film in dark, with coloured lights and with zoom.

Plus, there's a thing called brain where all memories are stored. Everyone have this peculiar device. Seriously, how can you forget you've been to a concert and saw a celebrity?? How can anyone have time for this? What about watching the concert, dancing, enjoying what you paid for? If you do forget and have to record "to save as a memory", well, such people go to really rubbish concerts...
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GameRager: Some don't share it though(yes many do but not all). Some just take such pics/video to save as memories....also quality on phones is going up every day so not all recordings are cr*p quality.
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DelanHellforce: Yes, the quality is better, but not good enough to film in dark, with coloured lights and with zoom.

Plus, there's a thing called brain where all memories are stored. Everyone have this peculiar device. Seriously, how can you forget you've been to a concert and saw a celebrity?? How can anyone have time for this? What about watching the concert, dancing, enjoying what you paid for? If you do forget and have to record "to save as a memory", well, such people go to really rubbish concerts...
Good point, but don't forget those with memory affective disorders or basic memory problems....also, the brain can't remember every detail/as many details and preserve them in such a way as a recording can.