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Kabuto: Nope. We let them install the meters and that was that. Wireless frequencies are all around us as are polluting toxins.

How anal are you going to get? Do you also not use a microwave, wireless network or a cell phone while encasing yourself in protective wrap to shield you from radio frequencies all around you everywhere you go?
I think the OP is worried about spying and information leakages, not pseudo-non-scientific "wireless radio sensitivity".
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KyleKatarn: Oh come on. I didn't mean to be like that :) I don't have a degree in electrical engineering so I clearly don't understand it all. It is something I try to teach myself though.

I'll do some research :P
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orcishgamer: Nah, I wasn't being snarky, I just knew you'd worked for a power company, I assume anyone who does so has way beyond a layman's understanding of how this shit works. I'm just continually surprised by people who don't give a shit about understanding anything (I've long ago concluded that I'm terribly weird for wanting to know everything, especially when the pursuit is ultimately impossible and even were it possible, unimportant in the end from a nihilistic sense - still, the pursuit provides some of those rare moments of pleasure for me so I do it anyway).
Ah, damn internet!

I'm surprised by how many people don't want to understand it too. I was a lineman at a power company. I remember having a beer at one of my coworker's house and talking about his new electric heater in his living room. I remarked that it drew a high amount of amps and he said he didn't give a shit how much power it used. The more, the better actually. More money for the utility was his reasoning.

I had to do something else. Too many philosophical differences for me.
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KyleKatarn: The reason I like a smart grid is because if it's restructured the way I would like it to be, off-grid isn't quite as appealing to some folks anymore. Right now you'd get laughed at for suggesting to anyone interested in installing a renewable energy system to go anything above the net metering limit, and rightfully so. Selling at an avoided cost is like giving away power. You're neighbors won't know you did it and the electric company won't thank you.
Hmm in the UK your paid back at your companies going rate for KW/H's you put onto the grid I know a few companies in my area had negative bills in the summer that offset the cost in the winter enough that the whole year they paid less than 1/10th their old annual bills, hell companies will fit solar cells for free in exchange for the back to grid income though it's widely agreed you're better off paying the £6-12000 if you can afford it as for a normal family (2 computers, both parents working 9am-3pm etc etc) it's paid off in 4 years and the agreement lasts 12 for the free cells...
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KyleKatarn: The reason I like a smart grid is because if it's restructured the way I would like it to be, off-grid isn't quite as appealing to some folks anymore. Right now you'd get laughed at for suggesting to anyone interested in installing a renewable energy system to go anything above the net metering limit, and rightfully so. Selling at an avoided cost is like giving away power. You're neighbors won't know you did it and the electric company won't thank you.
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wodmarach: Hmm in the UK your paid back at your companies going rate for KW/H's you put onto the grid I know a few companies in my area had negative bills in the summer that offset the cost in the winter enough that the whole year they paid less than 1/10th their old annual bills, hell companies will fit solar cells for free in exchange for the back to grid income though it's widely agreed you're better off paying the £6-12000 if you can afford it as for a normal family (2 computers, both parents working 9am-3pm etc etc) it's paid off in 4 years and the agreement lasts 12 for the free cells...
They passed laws here to only have to buy it back at wholesale. Fucking lobbies....
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KyleKatarn: The reason I like a smart grid is because if it's restructured the way I would like it to be, off-grid isn't quite as appealing to some folks anymore. Right now you'd get laughed at for suggesting to anyone interested in installing a renewable energy system to go anything above the net metering limit, and rightfully so. Selling at an avoided cost is like giving away power. You're neighbors won't know you did it and the electric company won't thank you.
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wodmarach: Hmm in the UK your paid back at your companies going rate for KW/H's you put onto the grid I know a few companies in my area had negative bills in the summer that offset the cost in the winter enough that the whole year they paid less than 1/10th their old annual bills, hell companies will fit solar cells for free in exchange for the back to grid income though it's widely agreed you're better off paying the £6-12000 if you can afford it as for a normal family (2 computers, both parents working 9am-3pm etc etc) it's paid off in 4 years and the agreement lasts 12 for the free cells...
It sounds like the way it works in the UK is different than how it works in my state. It varies from state to state in the US too. In my state, you get retail credit for what you consume. Anything produced over what you consume for that month is considered net excess generation figured at an avoided cost which is credited on your next month's bill before that month's net metering takes effect.

Here's how I figured it using USD. The way net metering works here, 25 kW rated capacity is the limit for what power companies are required to provide for customers. I figure that it will take 36 years to pay off a decent solar array that was installed at $5/watt and has a capacity factor of 20% with an electricity rate of $.08/kWh. If you can install an array yourself and know where to look for parts to get good deals, maybe you could install an array for $2/watt and have it pay off in 14 years at that rate. This is considering that everything is perfect and that the production matches the consumption exactly.

I figure it would take 51 years to pay off the same solar array at the same prices if someone averages producing 3,600 kWh/month but consumes 2,000 kWh/month. The extra 1,600 kWh would be an avoided cost credit, which I figured at $.03 kWh (it's difficult to figure out what a power companies prices are, they're really good at being sneaky about that so people can't figure it out.) If you could install at $2/watt, it would pay off in 20 years.

Now, to go back to my post. If I could get 10 watts per square foot, I could install 96 kW on one of those 80x120 buildings I mentioned. I'll round it down to 90 kW. That's way over the net metering limit here. Utilities can make arrangements for installations over the 25 kW limit if they want to, but most likely they wouldn't and would just buy the power at an avoided cost. Furthermore, since it's over the limit it, the customer would not receive any net metering benefits. It would take forever to pay off. Most quality solar panels are warrantied for 25 years. The most I could try to convince that person to install is 1/4 of the roof space on one of his two buildings.

Of course, right now there are grants and tax incentives to reduce the cost of installation, plus the price per watt keeps dropping. Also, the price per watt starts going down for bulk purchases at the 25 kW level and above. Electricity rates will likely go up rather than down in the future too.
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wodmarach: Hmm in the UK your paid back at your companies going rate for KW/H's you put onto the grid I know a few companies in my area had negative bills in the summer that offset the cost in the winter enough that the whole year they paid less than 1/10th their old annual bills, hell companies will fit solar cells for free in exchange for the back to grid income though it's widely agreed you're better off paying the £6-12000 if you can afford it as for a normal family (2 computers, both parents working 9am-3pm etc etc) it's paid off in 4 years and the agreement lasts 12 for the free cells...
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orcishgamer: They passed laws here to only have to buy it back at wholesale. Fucking lobbies....
I spent too long on my post and saw this later. That's pretty much it. It makes me wonder why, if they're so cheap and a natural monopoly like people like to say they are, they need more lobbyists than anyone else in the legislature...
Post edited March 04, 2012 by KyleKatarn
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KyleKatarn: snip
Over here we get to negotiate the contract ourselves for buyback by the power companies most people agree on retail value or just below, smart meters are used as they allow them to read your net generation and usage a month you then recieve a quarterly cheque off the power company who supplies you, or you can use it as a credit on your account if you want. I know some people on the south coast generate substantially more than they use (they are only home a few hours a day etc) and are earning a steady though small income as basicly small power companies
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KyleKatarn: snip
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wodmarach: Over here we get to negotiate the contract ourselves for buyback by the power companies most people agree on retail value or just below, smart meters are used as they allow them to read your net generation and usage a month you then recieve a quarterly cheque off the power company who supplies you, or you can use it as a credit on your account if you want. I know some people on the south coast generate substantially more than they use (they are only home a few hours a day etc) and are earning a steady though small income as basicly small power companies
That's the way I would like our grid to be. What are your thoughts on how it's working overall?
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wodmarach: Over here we get to negotiate the contract ourselves for buyback by the power companies most people agree on retail value or just below, smart meters are used as they allow them to read your net generation and usage a month you then recieve a quarterly cheque off the power company who supplies you, or you can use it as a credit on your account if you want. I know some people on the south coast generate substantially more than they use (they are only home a few hours a day etc) and are earning a steady though small income as basicly small power companies
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KyleKatarn: That's the way I would like our grid to be. What are your thoughts on how it's working overall?
put it this way I live in what would be called the suburbs in the US I can jump my fence and be on a farm. there are 101 houses in my village and of them 70 have solar cells on the roof...
We don't as I told the person offering them in exchange for the excess for the next 12 years I'd rather wait till I'm working and buy them as the income would offset a lot of my bills. He agreed with me but said a suprising number of people are happy with just the reduced power bills. My neighbour had free cells fitted his monthly bill has dropped over 1/4 which he's happy with, when I asked about the excess he finally checked the meter it would have been 1/8th with that calculated in >.<
Now consider I live at roughly 53° 32' 0" N
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KyleKatarn: That's the way I would like our grid to be. What are your thoughts on how it's working overall?
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wodmarach: put it this way I live in what would be called the suburbs in the US I can jump my fence and be on a farm. there are 101 houses in my village and of them 70 have solar cells on the roof...
We don't as I told the person offering them in exchange for the excess for the next 12 years I'd rather wait till I'm working and buy them as the income would offset a lot of my bills. He agreed with me but said a suprising number of people are happy with just the reduced power bills. My neighbour had free cells fitted his monthly bill has dropped over 1/4 which he's happy with, when I asked about the excess he finally checked the meter it would have been 1/8th with that calculated in >.<
Now consider I live at roughly 53° 32' 0" N
Sounds good to me. I take it that you're implying that your area is not the most ideal for solar cells. Probably cloudy sometimes. Do they like to use thin-film solar cells there? From what I know, they're not as efficient but they cost less and are better at producing power in low light conditions.
Post edited March 04, 2012 by KyleKatarn
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wodmarach: put it this way I live in what would be called the suburbs in the US I can jump my fence and be on a farm. there are 101 houses in my village and of them 70 have solar cells on the roof...
We don't as I told the person offering them in exchange for the excess for the next 12 years I'd rather wait till I'm working and buy them as the income would offset a lot of my bills. He agreed with me but said a suprising number of people are happy with just the reduced power bills. My neighbour had free cells fitted his monthly bill has dropped over 1/4 which he's happy with, when I asked about the excess he finally checked the meter it would have been 1/8th with that calculated in >.<
Now consider I live at roughly 53° 32' 0" N
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KyleKatarn: Sounds good to me. I take it that you're implying that your area is not the most ideal for solar cells. Probably cloudy sometimes. Do they like to use thin-film solar cells there? From what I know, they're not as efficient but they cost less and do better at producing power in low light conditions.
Parts of Alaska are level with me ;) It's cloudy most days here, during the summer though we can get 22 hour days which crank out REALLY nice amounts of solar power. cells vary from house to house but most seem to be normal silicon cells... I'm right on the border of where they'll do free installs much further north and by scotland it's deemed uneconomical for the free installers to trade due to the winter months...
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KyleKatarn: Sounds good to me. I take it that you're implying that your area is not the most ideal for solar cells. Probably cloudy sometimes. Do they like to use thin-film solar cells there? From what I know, they're not as efficient but they cost less and do better at producing power in low light conditions.
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wodmarach: Parts of Alaska are level with me ;) It's cloudy most days here, during the summer though we can get 22 hour days which crank out REALLY nice amounts of solar power. cells vary from house to house but most seem to be normal silicon cells... I'm right on the border of where they'll do free installs much further north and by scotland it's deemed uneconomical for the free installers to trade due to the winter months...
I'm kind of envious. This shit is enough to make me want to move from my state to a more friendly one. We finally just got net metering two years ago and that still isn't a very good deal to me. Before net metering all people could get is avoided cost or try to live off grid. There's no alternative here. I just don't want to move away from family though.
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Kabuto: How anal are you going to get? Do you also not use a microwave, wireless network or a cell phone while encasing yourself in protective wrap to shield you from radio frequencies all around you everywhere you go?
Obvious straw man is obvious.

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orcishgamer: I think the OP is worried about spying and information leakages, not pseudo-non-scientific "wireless radio sensitivity".
Well, my main concern is the cost increase. The marina where the boat is moored just installed smart meters and our bill already increased by about 50%. My parents-in-law were charged an unbelievable amount as well even though they were away from home most of the month.

Surveillance is a secondary concern (it just received a lot of criticism for some reason, perhaps leaving an impression of greater than actual importance.) But since I am in due diligence mode anyway, I don't think it is unreasonable to expect a clear privacy policy. I would also like to know more about the exploding defective units while we're at it.