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General discussionAxiom Verge 2 surprise launches later today... as an Epic Exclusive(50 posts)(50 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 13, 2021
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amok: sub-clause 1 a:
It depends a little, and it also depends on what you mean by achivments.

There are games, for example GemCraft: Chasing Shadows, where achievemnts = challanges = rewards. In GemCraft you have a skillpoints system, each time you level up you get 10 skillpoints which you can use improve your stats. However, the game also have 419 achivements, unlocking one gives you 1 skillpoint, so within the game there are 419 (quite alot) of skillppoints linked to achivments. If you ignore the achivements you lose out on a very large chunck of upgrades and basicaly cripple yourself.
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MeowCanuck: Specifically, I'm referring to client-based achievements. If it's in-game achievements like I think you're talking about, then those are absolutely fine and timeless. If that game does somehow ping your Steam profile for achievements to unlock in-game rewards, that's not a very good timeless design.
fair enough
Posted August 13, 2021
low rated
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amok: sub-clause 1 a:
It depends a little, and it also depends on what you mean by achivments.

There are games, for example GemCraft: Chasing Shadows, where achievemnts = challanges = rewards. In GemCraft you have a skillpoints system, each time you level up you get 10 skillpoints which you can use improve your stats. However, the game also have 419 achivements, unlocking one gives you 1 skillpoint, so within the game there are 419 (quite alot) of skillppoints linked to achivments. If you ignore the achivements you lose out on a very large chunck of upgrades and basicaly cripple yourself.
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MeowCanuck: Specifically, I'm referring to client-based achievements. If it's in-game achievements like I think you're talking about, then those are absolutely fine and timeless. If that game does somehow ping your Steam profile for achievements to unlock in-game rewards, that's not a very good timeless design.
hah why not?
whats the point of achievements if you dont save em somewhere?
useful rewards is the best thing in achis
Posted August 13, 2021
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MeowCanuck: Specifically, I'm referring to client-based achievements. If it's in-game achievements like I think you're talking about, then those are absolutely fine and timeless. If that game does somehow ping your Steam profile for achievements to unlock in-game rewards, that's not a very good timeless design.
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Orkhepaj: hah why not?
whats the point of achievements if you dont save em somewhere?
useful rewards is the best thing in achis
You can do the exact same thing with in-game achievements. Just screenshot it, upload it, and show off that way Also, please see my point #3 above.
Posted August 13, 2021
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Swedrami: Going out on a limb here, but the vast majority of GoG's user base couldn't care less about achievements and, in fact would see it as a positive if the GoG release were deliberately stripped of anything Galaxy-related.
Exactly that, for me too.

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MeowCanuck: - 70% on gamedevs for not clarifying what specific support they have to add to Galaxy and erroneously presuming they had to add in achievements
- 20% on GOG staff not clarifying what specific support is expected and for not following up to close the deal
- 10% on those achievement-obsessed vocal minorities giving off the impression that games must have achievements when they come here or else no one will buy it
When it's true that GOG tries to enforce Galaxy integration for games which support shop specific features elsewhere then I would put a much higher part of the blame on GOG.

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rjbuffchix: My response was something like, "value of achievements = $0.00". That said, in-game achievements are awesome and the way to go.
I strongly prefer vanilla game releases over games with integrated shop specific features, which is the way online achievements are currently implemented. That's why online achievement support even "adds" a negative value for me.

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MeowCanuck: 4. Even considering r/GOG's strong preference for Galaxy (67%, n=703), only 33% of players consider it essential to have (important + very important, n=748). In this "achievements are important" pool, 22% of them won't even buy the game if it doesn't have achievements, representing 7% of the total r/GOG sample size.
I doubt that these numbers are representative for the GOG user base. People which do not care about a shop client or online achievements are more likely to not have an account on Reddit or other social media platforms and thus participate much less in such polls. Running a poll directly on GOG's website, without requiring additional accounts, would give more reliable values.
Post edited August 14, 2021 by eiii
Posted August 15, 2021
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rjbuffchix: How do you know the reason they abandoned the game is because they are stuck or having trouble?
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amok: I said " where most players are stuck or when they abandon the game" - emphasis on OR.
I'm failing to see the difference? How does the developer know the player got stuck, versus abandoned the game? How does the developer know the person didn't abandon the game for a different reason perhaps unrelated to gameplay/skill level?

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rjbuffchix: ""Our metrics show that 90% of players quit our RPG after the 20 hour mark, even though there are 50 hours of content. So, our next RPG will contain 15 hours of content and naturally will retail for the same price".

Without these metrics, people might actually make deeper and longer games, designed to be enjoyed by single players/locally...imagine that!
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amok: No, again you are not understanding what is happening. What a game designer would most likely think is "Why do the players stop at 20 hours, I would like them to expereicne all of the game I have made! So i need to figure out why they stop there, so i can improve the game so they progress further than that mark". What the metrics tell the developers is where the problem areas are so thet they can improve the game.
What happens in their next game? Most likely, exactly what I suggested.

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rjbuffchix: A designer can somewhat anticipate what players want without needing to harvest data. After all, there was a time before achievements where designers did exactly that. Were games commonly being quit after a couple hours back then? I'm not sure we are currently seeing anything different, meaning the great advantage supposedly given by these metrics may not be that extensive
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amok: and there was also a time when devlopers just.... did not.... and they made the same mistakes over and over again. all this is doing is letting designers know exactly where in a game a problem arises (which they could not do before) and use this knoweldge to improve and make 'better' games. But off course, they can just guess instead of know.
Yes...but the time you mentioned was primarily before the time I mentioned. Meaning that people have had the ability to learn from these multiple points in time both of us have mentioned. I don't see how the metrics logically connect to full knowledge the way you seem to suggest. The developers can't know. They are making inferences from the data of the metrics to make what is at most an educated guess. If we are in the realm of educated guessing, as I think we necessarily have to be no matter what, then the metric-gathering is not necessarily any better than observations that were freely available before all the datamining.
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Community
General discussionAxiom Verge 2 surprise launches later today... as an Epic Exclusive(50 posts)(50 posts)
(50 posts)