I haven't played Breath of the wild but with Zero dawn I played over 100 hours I guess (with the dlc) and to be fair when you "explore" that much of the openworld in zero it is quite empty. You collect stuff, Village people ;) don't talk, only the merchants spew same shit and there's some challenge grounds and few pretty basic sidequests in there. Other than that you get attacked constantly. So it's not totally in different plane of existence than elex.

Look forward to it.

I must have started Elex 1 four or five times; each time getting about as far as that first village, starting to explore around it and do the quests there - and then something else comes along and pulls me away "temporarily" (most recently - Horizon Zero Dawn), and then I manage to not get back to it (and, when I finally do, I end up starting over).

At some point I need to play it and not get distracted.

I think Breath of the Wild is highly overrated. Is it an enjoyable game? Sure. That doesn't change the fact that most of its world felt so barren and boring. Hunting for Kokoro seeds in the vast emptiness is not exactly the epitome of fun. More actual dungeons would have helped, too, instead of yet another shrine/puzzle room.

The sad thing about Elex is that it could have become so much more than it ended up to be. It's the usual Gothic-formula in a new envelope:

- Start out as nameless wimp
- Find a faction
- Finish all quests to join it
- Receive best armor and weapons
- Explore the world
- Work off your bucket list of main- and side quests to become strong enough
- Find the BBE and beat him/it
- The End

Factions
Besides more quests for your bucket list the faction system is entirely useless. Come time to finish the last faction quest which is mandatory, otherwise it's impossible to progress to the next chapter, Jax should have solved lots of side-quests, possess the second best armor and weapon, has seen most of the world and would be able to beat the BBE in a matter of seconds even without that faction's armor and weapon(s).

Faction members a thousandfold stronger than Jax, all they do is standing or sitting around complaining, asking you to do things for them they could have done themselves and going about their daily business without having a care in the world. Some will offer themselves to join you but Jax simply doesn't need them. He has to do everything himself anyways and all a party member tagging along. At best they will keep some enemies off your back and at worst they will die trying.

In Gothic II I had to recruit 5 NPC which despite maybe the smith and a certain mage do nothing at all to help you overcome the dangers between you and the BBE. In Elex' final chapter Jax receives major support to reach the BBE by members of all factions. It goes without saying that this support isn't needed at all beacause by the time Jax arrives there he is so strong that he could take out all enemies by himself.

If PB had wanted to they could have given us the choice to join a faction and rise in ranks, or leave it up to us to buy armor and weapons equal to theirs and go it alone. Same difference I guess. It's even worse in Elex considering that there is this promise to create your own faction. There are two places in this game where this seemed to be possible. A certain place in the wilderness and a more protected place several different factions are living together. One becomes a parking lot for party members and recruited NPC. The second purpose this place exists is as an exercise in set-dressing because it's possible to individualize the place by wasting loads of money. This other place I mentioned would have been the more interesting choice with lots of possible quests to unite members of opposing factions under my leadership.

This was the biggest letdown for me. It was also a huge waste of potential because it would have set Elex worlds apart from its well known and beloved predecessors. Why? It's all because they decided to sacrifice this freedom on the altar for the overarching storyline demoting factions to a story vehicle and its members to quest-givers and set pieces. I guess this has been the case in most of their previous games. Only difference being that it wasn't so obvious as it was in Elex.

Even though improvements like being able to fly around with the jet-pack and fighting mid-air sound exciting it's rather underwhelming. The jet-pack as it was in Elex I was a great addition because it was a useful in several ways. Getting away from enemies, executing attacks and reaching high places such as the tops of high voltage poles. This wasn't easy and took some time and skill to get up there but it was rewarding. I hope that at least the world will reflect changes Jax caused even though it's set years after Elex I.

That said I don't expect much from Elex II. It's likely going to be just more of the same with little changes and small additions. Since I enjoyed Elex as much as I did there is no reason believing that this will be any different with Elex II. There have always been saving graces to any one of PB's games despite its shortcomings after all, no? :-)

Probably not overall, since we're talking about one indie AA vs. two major AAAs here, but at least in a few isolated aspects I subjectively do consider the first ELEX the better one.

The open-world design, the player character's progression, the setting, the more mature and rough tone, melee combat providing an actual challenge and forcing you to observe and properly react to the opponent's behavioural patterns, generally not holding your hand and letting you learn the hard way through your (repeated) failures would be a few from the top of my head.

Gothic 1 & 2 are great! ^_^

The problem I developed with Piranha is that all their games play mostly like:

* Spend 20 hours building up your character to not be a worthless lump of meat
* Spend the "remaining" 30 hours doing chore missions across huge maps squashing everything you were terrified to even look at in the first 20 hours

Everything in the world is waiting for you to be solved.
NPCs don't even go to the loo if you are not with with them.
Oh... and bugs. Balance issues. Broken quests. Annoying UI ...

Not disputing your characterizations, but in Gothic 3, at least, many to most of the NPC's have routines they all follow, not waiting for you.

They tend to their shops, their farm fields, patrols, work the mines, chop wood, etc. Most of them go to sleep in a bed at night (some are on "graveyard shift" and wake up at night). They take breaks to rest and eat.

They do it whether you are there or not, and if you are there, you can witness them "changing shifts", taking a rest or eating break, etc. You can awaken a sleeping shopkeeper to buy stuff. The NPC's generally have more-detailed "self-tended routines" than, say, what I've seen in the NPC's in, for example, Horizon Zero Dawn.

If you have a quest to, say, clear out "wildlife" from a mine or a woodcutting area, when you do that, then NPC's that were waiting for you will go from "town" (or, wherever they are) to the "field" and start working (still heading back after their shift to get some rest).

That was me... jumps up and down excitedly

Who cares. Piranha Bytes' games are terrible.

I'm about 50 hours into Elex right now. There's something I love about PB games. I think there are people who love and hate their games.

Are you offended by bugs, glitches, impotent story, and smooth gameplay? If so, this isn't for you.

But if you like dangerous exploration and a few surprises, you may like it.

I would compare this to Demonicon. Janky, hokey, odd, but delightful. But I like bad games.

I loved Demonicon and Bound By Flame (you need to try it if you haven't). Just something about clunky combat and the overly simplistic faction system in PB games irks me. I want to like them so much, especially since I finished Gothic, Gothic 2, Risen, and Risen 2. Risen 2 and 3 really kind of broke away from the standard formula, but it still didn't tickle me right. Elex felt like sinking back into a familiar formula with the parts of Gothic I disliked the most.

The real issue is that most NPC, quest-givers, guards, patrols ... don't do anything to solve their problems. Instead they are waiting for an unknown wimp to come traipsing along to ask him to kill wolves, field crawlers and other monsters plaguing the farm, they have him run utterly stupid errands for very little in return, they are waiting in the middle of the wilderness for him to escort them to town, they have him put his life at risk to solve any problem they are confronted with.

That wouldn't be a problem because there has to be something to do to earn ones' living, to advance in levels, to raise abilities and experience, to be able to buy all sorts of equipment, magic concoctions, spells, armor, weapons, ammunition and whatever else there is to be had or needed.

The whole system falls apart when considering that most those NPC/quest-givers, guards are way stronger than you. They would be able to kill the wolves with one or two strokes of their wooden staff, dagger, bow, crossbow or magic. Why bother? There is this expendable wimp. Why not let him have at the pack of young/hungry/starving wolf pack or the field crawlers? Let me give you a few random examples to further illustrate my point. I will try to avoid spoilers as best as possible!

Gothic 2
In a certain place the nameless hero is asked to escort someone to a safe place. The whole area is infested with Orcs he seems to be afraid of. He also refuses to come close to a faction's guards because they could take him back to prison. This leaves me with little choice but to try to get him to safety avoiding several different types of monsters, the Orcs and the guards. Inevitably will we run into a horde which has him attack them instead of running as the nameless eventually does to save his hide. 1 Shaman, 3 Patrols, 1 Orc Elite, 3 Wargs later we are on our way again. He took some hits but he was able to take down most of his enemies in no time. That being the case we could also have walked across that bridge, taking the direct route to the exit of this area, but since he refuses to even get close to anything Orc, it was impossible. He stood there saying: 'HEY, WAIT!' refusing to go any further. There were many more monsters and enemies in our way he had no difficulty dealing with.

Later on in the game our hero will eventually encounter a couple standing around in the middle of nowhere. They are desperate to get away from where they've come from. Judging by their looks they wouldn't be able to survive. Of course, being the hero you are, you will eventually agree to help them. For a short while everything was in order, no sign of any enemies or monsters, they were following at a safe distance. This didn't last long, though. In front of us a horde of Orcs, the inevitable fight ensues and, before long, it was over. Most of the work was done by the couple myself trying to lure away the Elite while they were hacking and shooting away at the guards.

Both these situations got one thing in common: Why the hell did they wait for me to save their sorry behinds?! They are able to kill Orcs which I eventually still got trouble with. It was early in the game after all and so this is to be expected. Ridiculous!

It's even more ridiculous in a very early stage in the game. Trying to become the smith's apprentice, he told me about an Orc threatening the city. Bring me an Orc weapon and you can become my next apprentice! Trying to become apprenticed to the hunter he demanded: Bring me six wolf furs! Eventually there is the former hunter's apprentice waiting at the marketplace. He will agree to accompany me on a hunt for a price which I agreed to.

I was so weak that even a meat bug could kill me. After learning some necessary hunting skills we leave the city for a small wood. Before long we encountered the wolves and I had to risk my life to distract the beasts so he could shoot them. He asks whether I wish to go further in, cautioning me that it would be dangerous. Yes, of course, let's! A few moments later the Orc the smithy has told me about comes charging at him. One shot with his bow and three to four blows with his sword later this abomination drops dead. RIDICULOUS!

The commonality is that while even at later stages it's a struggle to kill certain kinds of monsters and enemies like Bandit archers, Shamans or Orcs, a simple NPC farmhand is able to kill anything from wolves, to field raiders, to Orcs and maybe even trolls! Why are you even there in the first place? What with the Paladins? What with Xardas, the mages, the Mercenaries? Everyone is stronger by a thousandfold right from the start, able to save the world and wipe out all monsters single-handedly!

What's the purpose of my being there in the first place? Why do I have to do all work and solve all the problems others are facing? And for heaven's sake why should I risk my life to save dozens of NPC? Why should I even care the world goes under when the only reason it will happen is NPC sitting and standing around doing nothing? Not one NPC out of a hundred, but a majority, able to save the world themselves! Extremely Ridiculous!

In the end there is no feeling of excitement and satisfaction having saved the world and hundreds of NPC lives. What remains is the knowledge that I successfully ticked off all items on the quest list, having solved dozens of bucket list tasks and challenges and having killed the BBE. Otherwise it wouldn't have made a difference whether I was there because it has no impact on the world. Come next game it's the same thing all over again.

That's not exclusive to PB's games of course but many RPG games. I seem to remember that someone once called this bucket-list or wastebasket games. All you really do is working of a bucket list of tasks rinse and repeat. In some games this is hardly noticeable while in others it's more in your face. PB's certainly are in your face making it plain obvious that that's what you are supposed to do.

The individual impact my deeds have on a certain place, an NPC or the world as a whole, the feeling of having made a difference, doing something no one else could, this is what PB's games deny me. There simply is none! If they decide to change the story than that is what is going to happen and that's what truly matters. For instance in Elex, joining the Berserkers, nature lovers or at least that's what they pretend to be, when fighting for their cause one could expect to find a very different planet once the game is over and the BBE has been beaten. More forests, with special and ordinary trees and plants growing in them, nature taking over, the deserts' starting to bloom. On a smaller scale and individual level, say I saved a farmer's life, next time I visit him (ELEX II) he will be there remembering what I did for him, his farm has grown considerably, he is now married got children and pressing problems. It is something that only I will be able to solve. What I do will have a real impact on him and others. If I decide not to help I expect to see his farm burned down or him being killed by some monster or an enemy of his. In case I help him maybe one of his sons or daughters becomes and emissary on an island we have to visit helping us when we need it.

The consequences of my action or inaction should show and be felt! It's that simple! In that respect many RPG designers could take a look at games like Stardew Valley where things start to grow, there is a feeling of purpose and belonging. It's all artificial of course but at least you are able to see that you actually make a difference. Something many games promise and hardly any actually keep.

-

Long post short: PB's games are very good in other aspects, they got many saving graces as was said, the stories are descent and the worlds interesting. I enjoyed playing ever single one of them. None can claim for itself to be the the best of the best™ :-)

When I say the NPC don't do much is not about the daily routines but more about the quests themselves.

Normally these NPCs requires tasks that they could easily do by themselves, instead they are just waiting around for... YOU.
All game do this but in Piranha games it is so slapped on your face that the whole game world feels like being in stasis. Also because this is often use across the whole game and games.

The quest tree and structure is mainly the same from Gothic 1.

I hear you. It's a legit observation.

However, I don't hear it as a legit observation about Piranha games so much as a general criticism of most RPG's (and even non-RPG's) questlines.

What you and the other poster say, while true, in my experience is nowhere even close to being limited to their games.

Maybe I just haven't played enough of them - but the ones I can think of (such as the Fallouts, Horizon Zero Dawn, etc.) seem to do the same thing. Pretty much every MMO I've played is that way too (WoW, SWG, Anarchy, Neocron [sp?], Fallen Earth, Ultima's, even ToonTown, etc.)

I don't see specifically not playing Piranha games for that issue - if it bugged me enough - I wouldn't be playing RPG's
(and perhaps many other genres) at all.

But, it is true. I'll agree with that.