One thing I have noticed from playing lots of RPGs (and games that are RPG-like enough for this discussion to make sense) is that there are differences in the number of stats in an RPG, as well as differences in how high they grow during the game. For example:

Baldur's Gate (and other D&D based games) has 6 stats, which start in the single digits or teens, and don't grow much if at all, during the game. (Side note: in 1e and 2e based games, it feels like the mental stats aren't particularly meaningful and probably could have been dropped; exceptions include the Dark Sun games (though Charisma still feels pointless) and Planescape: Torment (though there largely due to scrips checking the stats rather than game mechanics).) There's also HP, which is on a different scale than the other stats and does increase significantly, reaching low triple digits for some characters.

Wizardry and Bard's Tale copied D&D in terms of stats, but stats would tend to grow to 18 during the course of the game.

Ultima series: Ultima 3 has 4 stats plus HP; non-HP stats go up to 99 (and can start as high as 25), while HP starts at 150 and grows from there. Ultima 4 has only 3 stats (capped at 50) plus HP, and Ultima 5 and 6 reduced the numbers further (30 for stats and 30/level (max 240) for HP).

Elder scrolls series: 8 stats (which might be too many) + HP; stats start around 50 and grow slow-ish up to 100.

Final Fantasy 5 and 6: 4 stats + hP and MP; the 4 stats don't really increase much during the game (though in FF5 changing Jobs will drastically change the character's stats); in FF5, HP and MP are derived stats so there are really only 4 stats (+ level, if you count that).

Dragon Quest 1: 4 stats, counting HP and MP. These stats start small, but grow significantly at level up, potentially exceeding 100 by endgame.

Disgaea series: 8 stats (counting HP/SP); these stats start close to D&D levels, but grow very quickly at level up. At max level, stats easily reach the tens of thousands; by using the game's various other ways of boosting stats, they can be raised into the millions.

SaGa 1 and 2; 4 stats plus HP. They start at single digits and can grow up to 99 (plus a bit higher when you factor in equipment boosts).

So, how do you like your stats in RPGs? Do you prefer to have more of them or just a few? Do you prefer games where your stats remain more or less constant, or those where your stats by endgame are far higher than the ones you have at the start?

I think I prefer how early SaGa did it; only 4 stats, but they grow significantly (though not even close to Disgaea level) as the game progresses.

Strength is not in numbers, but how you use it. :P

Serously though, I don't care about how many stats are or how large they grow. How they affect the game is important. Every stat should have meaning and raising it must be important part of character development.

What do you consider to be a "stat"? In BG (and other D&D game), although the 6 "stats" don't grow, they are in essence just modifiers. Thac0 on the other hand, continues to grow (or decreas in this case), just like thief skills... etc.

EDIT: Also, to answer your last question: no preference as long as it's implemented properly (i.e. a "normal" playthrough - one that isn't done with powergaming or stat-raising in mind - shouldn't give you godlike powers).

THAC0 can go to Hell and die. in a fire. With embellishments. And cancer with AIDS sprinkles.

I wasted many a night in my teen years memorizing THAC0 charts and calculating THAC0 ratings... The newer DC rating andArmor rating system is far better. FAR FAR better.

In general, I am thinking mainly of base stats; that is, those stats that aren't derived from other characteristics. Also, at least in my initial post, I wasn't counting level, but one could count that.

(Note that I don't count values like experience points and gold as stats either.)

I am also not counting skills as stats here, though that could be an arbitrary decision. (Case in point: SaGa Frontier 2 has only HP, LP, WP, and SP for stats (WP and SM are like MP, while LP is sort-of-like HP but doesn't grow like the other stats), but has a bunch of weapon and magic skill levels.)

With respect to your THAC0 example, THAC0 is derived by class and level, and is not something that can be improved independently.

In tabletop RPGs, stats do two things: they delineate skill groups that people have a broad competence in and that characters are rewarded for taking together, and they provide a default character trait to invoke when an action the player wants to take doesn't correspond to a skill. Now, the first is unnecessary limiting and has always struck me as trying to make up for bad game design. The second makes sense but is absolutely not an issue in CRPGs for obvious reasons.

Thus,

In classic CRPGs, I just don't want stats at all. Immutable stats often feature in "you must be this tall" checks, in which case I should know beforehand that e.g. cracking a safe with a Tesla gun requires DEX 15 raw (and +3 from an item), and if I want to be moderately dexterous 15 is okay but 14 is just plain stupid in retrospect. This stuff should be just replaced with a selection of binary perks.

When stat increases are plentiful and keyed to level, they're often pointless. Just give me level-appropriate power scaling and specializations. E.g. traditionally, a wizard wants a maxed-out INT, but the secondary stat can be CON, DEX, WIS or CHA. This can be replaced with the wizard class automatically providing the power scaling associated with maxed-out INT and a selection of specializations -- war wizard, arcane duelist, oracle, enchanter -- replacing an investment in each secondary stat.

Stats are mostly useful in "learn by doing" sandbox games. Without a mandatory threat escalation to keep up with, using one skill defrays the cost of grinding related skills to useful effective levels, and that's good. Imagine a Dorf Fortress / Banished / KoDP-style colony sim where one of your characters takes up woodworking and goes blunt stick - sharp stick - spoon - ... - chess set fit to give to the emperor in exchange for military aid; it's good when the same character takes up pottery and her first pot can already hold water, because the novelty of total incompetence has already worn off. In this case, five or six stats are probably optimal.

Of all the RPGs I've played I've enjoyed Fallout's SPECIAL system the most. And its skill system for that matter.

If all stats were the same in the games then I would say that would be rather boring.

I really like stat system in MM6-8: stats are not that extremely important and even though you can increase them via barrels it doesn't matter all that much. Skills do. So whenever you level-up you can really make your characters better by choosing right skills. It gives many ways to build your characters.

My head is spinning from all the different kinds of "stats" or enhancements that Deus Ex has. At least they are explained well in the game, but I am still wondering that if I e.g. want get rid of that awfully strong recoil, and drift of the scope when I am trying to aim, of my sniper rifle, which should I concentrate on more, or are they both important:

- adding skill points to my rifle skill (does this affect the drift and recoil at all?)

- finding weapon upgrades for my sniper rifle (I see you can upgrade the rifle's "accuracy" and "recoil" several times, so I guess I just need to find enough of those ugprades)

Are there possibly even some body augmentations that can affect my sniping ability?

So far Deus Ex seems to have a pretty ok system, albeit it is just as much an action game as it is a RPG.

Skill points do affect recoil & drift, yes. Investing skill points is the fastest and easiest way to deal with that issue. Skill also increases damage, although this doesn't matter much with the sniper rifle.

The number of upgrades you find throughout the game is limited and they do not make a huge impact. I can't remember if there's a cap on how many upgrades you can install in any given weapon. I think they're mainly useful for making up for lower skill where you can't be bothered to spend all the skill points e.g. because you don't care about that particular weapon category. So if snipers are the only rifle cat weapons you use, then it might make sense to leave it at trained or advanced and put all the upgrades into the sniper rifle.

Yes there is an aug that improves your targetting ability.

That's good then. I dislike the weapon upgrades as I am unsure if I will later find a better weapon (like a better sniper rifle) and wish at that point that I would have saved all the upgrades for it, or if I find at some point of the game that sniper rifle is ineffective to many kinds of enemies (e.g. robots?) and I need to use some other weapon anyway, like that DEP rocket launcher.

Skills are more "item-agnostic" in that way, I get the same advantages to all rifle weapons, even a sawed-off shotgun. I presume you can't "extract" those weapon upgrades from your older weapons either...?

That reminds me that Deus Ex seems to have other upgradeable things too, like you can upgrade your installed augmentations (not with skill points, but with separate "augmentation upgrade canisters" you find lying around), and there were those "perks" as well, which IIRC can be upgraded with skill points too. Not sure why there are so many different levels of skills or upgrades in the game which sometimes seem to be overlapping a bit, but I guess it is ok.

That's correct. The installation is permanent. I think the appeal is that it gives the player choices and more freedom to make a build to their liking. So for example, if you care about swimming, you can invest in the skill. But maybe you value some other skills more than swimming. So you could take the aug instead. But if you prefer the exclusive alternative to the swimming aug, you still have the option of going with the environmental skill to make the most use out of rebreathers, and get more use out of other similar items too.. but going that route means collecting and carrying said items around in your inventory. Finally, you can choose to just avoid water as much as possible.

It's very redundant, but it works out to be a fun system as there are so many viable builds. Admittedly this is helped by the fact that Deus Ex is *far too easy.* To the extent that it doesn't really even matter what skills & augs you choose. That is somewhat unfortunate; once you realize this is the case, the choices you get to make start to seem superficial and pointless. Still, it's likely to be more satisfying than if you had no choice.

They tried to remove the redundancy in Deus Ex 2 (Invisible War) and the game really suffered for it.

HP is also derived from Class and Level. Different classes get different hit dice and those are multiplied by level with a modifier from some Stats.

I want as few as possible because I want the character creation to be simple. If it has many stats, it gets complicated and I spend too much time thinking about how to build the character and if there are dice involved, I will roll forever until I get the minimums I want :)