So a question. I haven't read the books (a long time ago I was dissuaded by talk of GRRM's health and the likelihood he'd ever finish the story - and I know if I start now "just to catch up" to the TV series I'd be done with all of them in a month - I know, I know but I'm hooked on the "surprise" of seeing it played out on screen now). PLEASE keep this spoiler free (again, the surprise thing!) and if you have any inkling that some of this stuff is meant to be a bit of a mystery at this point, to be revealed in time and not known by me now, please let me know!

Anyway, so I've gathered that Oberyn's sister was married to Rhaegar, and there was a reference made to Rhaegar wanting another woman and it starting a war. I'm also fairly certain the other woman was Eddard's sister. Was she to be married to Robert at this point? Was Robert's Rebellion started because Rhaegar tried to take Eddard's sister from Robert; sort of an Illiad thing? The way Robert was obsessed with her I sort of assumed the feeling was mutual - or was Rhaegar trying to run away ;) with his true love? Is this the same conflict that eventually also ended with the Mad King dying and Robert ascending the throne? Thanks all, and remember based on where the TV series is now, keep it spoiler free! I'd rather not know, even if it's a small mystery than ruin a reveal later.

If you have not read the first book, avoid this. This is background info one learns upon reading the first book.


Rhaegar, the mad king's heir, 'took' Ned's sister away. Quotes around took since it isn't conclusively said whether she went against her will or not. It is assumed that she was kidnapped. At this time, she was betrothed to Robert.

What caused the war was that Ned's older brother went to King's Landing and called out to Rhaegar to come out to die for kidnapping the sister. The mad king arrested him and ordered the Stark patriarch to King's Landing to swear obedience. Instead, he held the Starks for trial and basically exectuted them.
This is when Ned and Robert called their banners. Also the Tullys of Riverrun and Jon Arryn of the Vale allied with Ned and Robert.
All this led to mad king being killed and Robert taking the throne.

(Most of this is pre-series, so can be considered spoiler free. Take from it what you can, I'm not taking the Encyclopedia route on this one.)

Let's make this quick and painless:
The war started because
1. Rhaegar Targaryen, heir to the Mad King, abducted Lyanna Stark, who was bethroned to Robert Baratheon and was sister to Eddard Stark. He hid her in Dorne.

2. Her other Brother, Brandon Stark, went to King's landing (dun dun duuun) to demand her release. The king said "Nope." and started shouting treason. Then Brandon's dad and some other nobles came to King's landing (dun dun duuun) and asked for a fair trial. The King had them all burned and / or boiled. Them's be fighting words. War starts.

3. More or less everyone joined Robert's rebellion sooner or later, and the mad King gets sliced and diced by Jaime. Rhaegar gets clobbered for his troubles. Interestingly, Lyanna dies, and Robert marries Cersei. Heh. Also, almost every Targaryen gets butchered except "I want a golden crown!" Viserys and Daenerys.

I would love to go more in-depth with A Song of Ice and Fire but, you know, spoilers ;) ^^^^^
Exactly this

Great thank you all these were perfect responses! I feel like you filled me in on what I should know but kept away from any of the potential spoiler realm material - exactly what I hoped for! Much appreciated.

DON'T READ THIS IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE BOOKS / DON'T WANT TO KNOW MY RAMPANT SPECULATION













I've always thought Jon Snow wasn't really Ned's bastard. I don't know why, but I've always been curious and always thought Eddard was hiding who he was for someone. This is the reason I wondered a bit about Lyanna and Rhaegar and what caught my attention when I first heard Oberyn mention it in the first or second episode of the season. So last night I THINK I had my suspicions confirmed, when King's Blood obsessed Melissandra (spelling) glares at JS across the flames. I don't need any confirmation (actually, please don't! ;) ) but I had to drop this here. Even when Ned "affirms" J's status before J leaves for The Wall he DOESN'T say you're my son... just that you have my blood...

Not just your speculation. Think of how the book series is called, then your speculation doesn't seem so rampant.
But, who knows?

Warning do not read if you want to avoid possible spoilers.



Ned never calls Jon his son. All he ever says is things like "You have my blood". And when Jon goes to the wall I believe he says to JS "You may not have my name, but you have my blood". Which obviously provides a strong measure of support for the widely accepted (but still unconfirmed) R + L = J theory

LOL missed that totally ;) JMich if you're current with the books, without revealing anything, has JS' status been confirmed yet, or is it something yet to be addressed or is it just a non-starter (in other words, I'm making a big deal out of something that is just a confirmed fact - Jon IS Ned's bastard and that's the end of it).

Don't recall any confirmation either way.

I'm re-reading the first books right now (I read them in 2007) and this JS theory is quite interesting. Thanks for bringing it up!

You know, I was just wondering whether a convincing case can be made that Pre-Raphaelitism is an avant-garde movement comparable to, say, the French Impressionism that rose to prominence shortly thereafter.

Ah yes the 1800s on - or as I like to call it "The Beginning of When Art Replaced Actual Talent and Mastery With Clics Like Pre-Raphaelitism and Words Like Avant-Garde"

Within one hundred years, art would be splotches on paper that looked like a child spilled his ink pot... 50 after that and you'd have feces on display in New World museums.

Funnily, the goal of the first Pre-Raphaelite brotherhood was to get back to the masters of the early Renaissance and their paintings were noticable for their striking amount of detail and realism.

When fire and ice comes and sings iissszzzzzzzz, snow is formed