A token, cast away comment that he waited for no response on? If you think that then you and I simply have very differing opinions on what constitutes looking for new information. On top of which he completely dropped any other train of thought to attack me, the person pressing him. Not based on anything real, based on whatever he could cook up. Have you noticed Baron just keeps piling more and more theories of how I am presumably scum hoping to see one stick?

That is what ultimately prompted my vote, his complete overreaction made me believe my theory was rock solid.

Itai responded

Red even acknowledges it

Muttly you and Red both seem to strongly believe the other is mafia. So surely it makes sense to focus solely on that. Can't see why that's a negative for Red as you don't seem to be looking at anyone else either.

I though Red was repeating the same theories over and over. Though I would welcome a short post where he clearly lays out his case against you.

Appears I have also misunderstood your reasoning for suspecting Red.

Could you explain why?

Hrm. I'm finding the Muttly vs Baron debate to be kind of funny. Both arguments essentially boil down to "he isn't backing down classic lyncher scum play" but both are not backing down themselves, doing the exact thing that "confirmed" their respective positions. In particular, Muttly's repeated statement of focusing on "known scum" seems to be a much more subtle way of justifying a targeted lynching. I don't know a lot about mafia, but from what I know scum tend to be quieter then town. Of course, the Baron has plenty of suspicious moments, as I already laid out.

Clearly we're not going to get anywhere looking at their back and forth. I'm going to take a look at how both players acted in Day 1 and see if that tilts my opinion one way or the other, cause Day 2 isn't giving me a lot to go on so far.

@ muttly; Why dis you say stuart can be backup lynch when you think he is more likely to be town?

Well, I agree with some of his opinions on muttly. Like the fact he called only Red and not itai on stuart vote, muttly conviction that Red is scum but not voting (at first) and calling Red_Baron 100% scum out of nowhere. I have to confess that I haven't read the most recent posts, though.

Mostly I don't think it's town vs. town and I am much more inclined to believe muttly is scum than Red_Baron. I have to read some more thing, though. Like Red's game in G4.
Also Red_Baron did some weird things too so I am not sure too. As pazzer pointed his first post this day really contains some usual scum-tell and his assumption of stuart hammering, although lynch was quite a mess due not registered stuart's vote and lack of Red's unvote.


Also, thanks for avatar, itai.sharim. :-)

As stated, if I were in Barons shoes I could use Stuart as an easy backup if I obtained no further information. It was the only thought process that would have made sense if Baron were a town player in my opinion. Not, let me go right out and vote for someone who was at L2 the day before after declaring I wanted more information.

I would like to point something out, my argument is based on what Baron actually said and then executed. The counter arguments are what he (or anyone else) is attempting to read into my words. You can pull apart each of my words and bend them as you see fit, I stand by my statements. What I am asking you to do is look at Barons actual actions...

1 - States he wants more info from the lynch.
2 - Immediately votes without waiting for any further info (reads pazzers posts for denials of that, again, I stand by my statement and would ask you make up your own mind).
3 - Called on this action, he immediately goes on a mass-offensive against his questioner while leaving a multitude of other options behind, including simply answering the issue at hand.

Straight forward as that. Thats what I am asking you to judge on, not trying to wrap his chopped up words around a flag pole and squeeze them into a theory. I am asking you look at his actions. If you can validate that behavior as town, then dont vote him.

@Peanut: As already stated I apologise if I have caused any distress or offence, I missed the bit where you said that you had been called away on a family emergency.

@Red_Baron: Why do you think that posts from RVS are not valid during the rest of the game? Do they contain NO useful information?

@Muttly: Can you please clarify this for me. Many of the others are forming a part of their case around you on the basis that you claimed a solid scum tell on Red_Baron but didn't vote, leading to statements such as this:

The way that I interpreted this "solid scum-tell" is that it was against Vitek as it followed a quote from him, as can be seen here:

Is this the case (that the scum-tell was against Vitek) or have I misunderstood this or picked the wrong post?

No offence taken at all, good sir.

Bah... reading it again I've had a change of heart. Especially with Pazzer's insightful revelations.
Kinda feeling stupid for getting caught up in this debate.
unvote red baron
They could both be town. It seems possible that one of them is mafia but... I've lost all faith in my gut. Muttly's argument suddenly seems ridiculously flawed from the start. RedBaron I don't think really had anything that wasn't misunderstanding. It's the reaction that make all this seem like interest and PeanutBrittle made a lot of sense here:
It's true that BOTH their actions indicate scumforth, but the nature of the event means that ONE must be false indication. As it could be either, then both could be wrong.
Do you get me?

But yeah it's been mentioned. By focusing on two it allows many to feel safe. Probably a bad idea.

Well Rob hasn't answered my question again. I think it was a good question.
Vote Robbeasy

Okay, this is a ridiculously massive post – sorry about that (But have to argue my reasons – give profs – although tried to avoid quoting due to length, so you might want to check back using my post numbers as reference), but I'll keep it in a readable format as best to my ability. Thus meaning that first I'll post the short form of a case, then the arguments for it and then down below all of that; a section with more comments/more points and more clarification if needed (search for numbers).
So if you’re in doubt about why I am saying it, look down at where the number is reoccurring and you'll hopefully see it/understand – I have also placed some new things I noticed or part of my reply that I didn’t post in the short form one. In some cases, if it’s a really big reply of mine and I’ve taken the important parts, I recommend to read it yourself. And by doing this I have also rethought some of what he is saying and written when I’ve misunderstood something.
Short summation of my cases against muttly13, all of which explained below and in the following posts:
- He has posted a very weak argument against me, while being so sure that I am scum – at a point when I haven’t even responded yet.
- He refused to vote until called out (Note the interesting point made by Itai about a similar case – See at the very bottom of the last post of this madness of WOT)
He is ignoring Itai (only a short comment about it after being called on it multiple times)
- He doesn’t respond to my questions, even if he asked for explanation himself. He even denies to do it at one point. If others question him in regards of the case, he dodges it.
- He has made multiple contradictions
- He has a good load of odd statements and in many situations formulates his posts to make me sound more scummy.
- Calling those in favor of me my scum buddies (Case of Robbeasy)
- He has blatantly lied about what I said

The rest of the post is attached here (the dropbox link), due to size and not wanting to spam the thread. This details my reasons for above accusations, I recommend search to find out where I talk about what.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4765076/ReallyBigWOT.pdf

Thanks Red for the short post explaining things. Don't think you needed the 11 page pdf as well. Was hoping it would help me sort things out. Not sure it has though.

Don't think he has. Could you point out an example.

Hmmmmmm, I have a few reads, I haven't brought myself to read through the last hundred posts yet.

On Z's death. His immediately claimed Vitek and Joe as scum in the RVS stage. Red came out claiming that people should really fear a player of his caliber, putting a vote on Z fearing that he'd be scum.

One thing that REALLY bothered me was people calling for Lynch All Lurkers as early as day 1. Guys, this to me is REALLY dangerous because it's an easy Mafia ploy to just lynch ANYONE. They really don't care who gets lynched as long as it isn't them. I'm of the opinion that you should hold off to poke at Lynching Lurkers til Day 3, when a pattern of actual lurking arises and you can't let those people go into Lynch or Lose (LyLo for those who don't know the abbreviation). Seeing this makes me very uncomfortable.

No vote until I read everything, sorry guys.

I needed it just for the very reason you yourself just wrote: When people ask me to prove where I've gotten that from. But allow me to quote myself:

Thus I am saying that its a lie when he states that I wrote I wanted more info then went ahead and voted without waiting. Writing that I hope we learn something from a lynch/NK then more than 36 hours passes, I make 2 posts talking about what occurred ending with a vote, is not the same thing.

There is others examples as well and some where it depends on whether you believe me or him.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Okay, just have a question and a comment:

Who is "his", meaning who did?

In RVS I did that as part of the joke going on at the time, but yes.

Agreed - Though the one that was actually lynched for it, was to my memory going to be removed for being inactive otherwise

Well thats a good thing, so no reason to apologize.

Erm. Ignore my question to Muttly. Tried reading through it all again after watching a football match and having a few beers, and it seems I got myself all confused. Duh!

Lesson learned -> post message then watch football.

Now I'm off to read through Red Baron's massive WOT.

I know it's the weekend, guys, but the game goes on...