Bugger that, remember the discs that had intentionally created bad sectors that acted as copy protection because they were a bitch to replicate. Then again for someone who bought his games that shouldn't be a problem because its not like floppies never spontaneously died...

I don't know why you make a difference between copy protection and DRM. In my book they are synonyms. (maybe DRM being a bit more general)

You say, Steams copy protection doesn't limit the users ability to play anywhere he wants (if internet connection is available). I agree with that, but the same is true for disc checks (if a disc drive is available). Its not about that.

Its about rights. The users right is limited. Not he/she can decide, if a game is played, he/she has to ask Steam before every install and every update and every multiplayer session using the multiplayer features of Steam (sorry, hope, repetitions don't get too boring). For me this is an online check and takes control away from me. GOG is the example how it can be different. Thank you but no. I want Steam to change for the better, so I avoid it until it does. I have enough good stuff with disc checks or DRM free on my shelve.

For the future I am still not sure which degree of online DRM I can tolerate. Maybe when there is only Steam or xbox Live or Ubisoft left, I have to go their way, but not now. Much too early.

for the 1000 time: You Can Play Steam Games Offline.

I did it for years, you can. Of course you need to buy and download the game before, and for that you need a connection, but you need it for buy and download from GOG too as we're talking of DIGITAL DELIVERY

For the 1 trillionth time: You can't install them offline and that is a prerequisite for playing, so no, you can't playing without first asking Steam.

However once you asked, you can play unasked for a while (until you have a new computer, changed hardware or OS or deinstalled or want an update or want to use the MP feature of Steam - repetition is good, eh?). I never doubted that - which you will know from my posts. I also never doubted that there are pros and cons. Its simply not the point that I want to make.

The point is: GOG is also DIGITAL DELIVERY and guess what, once I have the installer I can do with it, what I want, never have to ask GOG again for anything. See one paragraph before for all the things, Steam doesn't allow me. I see a considerably large difference there.

Okay, lets take another approach: GOG is advertising with DRM free, Steam is not advertising with DRM free. Must have a reason and must have to do with DRM.

This is true and it's a very good part of Steam, however it doesn't work for all people. That makes it doubly unfortunate for someone who has bandwidth caps and/or an unreliable internet service.

Warning: Wall of text

Also, I'm a bit late to reply to those who replied to me two pages ago but I just wanted to say that yes, I know Steam is DRM. It forces you to have internet connection to download their games and once you've bought it, it's yours forever without the option of selling or giving it away (though I would never dream of that, I think publishers deserve customers to buy their games new). It also gives Valve the ability to ban your account, perhaps even wrongfully, thus keeping you from your legally purchased games. I understand this, and I agree that this isn't the best solution. The best solution would be how GOG does things, though it would be nice if they had a sort of frontend software that gave a lot of the community features and such that Steam has, but without DRM and such. That way I would still have all of those community features at my fingertips, I could browse the GOG store without having to open a browser, AND I could download the game and/or it's installer and I wouldn't have to stay connected to the internet later to play or install the game. That would be my perfect digital distribution solution (heh, that rhymed). Unfortunately, not many publishers are willing to sell their new games without any form of DRM like GOG does, they view it as insane because of how easy it would make piracy. That's true, it would make piracy even easier than it already is, but honestly we all know that no DRM ever stopped a pirate for very long (usually the game is available to steal long before it's available to buy). Because of this, companies choose services like Steam which make their games available to an absolutely huge audience and at the same time offer the protection of their DRM (that we all know doesn't really work).

Now like I've said before, Steam is DRM and has it's pro's and it's con's but compared to some of the DRM it is the lesser of evils, like what was in Assassin's Creed 2 (where you had to stay connected to the internet at all times and if you disconnected it would kick you out of the game), SecuROM, and Starforce. It's still DRM but it's not as bad as the other options and Valve offers enough features alongside it that for now it's a solution that I can live with and even enjoy.

Darmak you just summed up what I think! great post :)

We need to think more in real terms, talking about new games Steam is the best digital delivery service out there and there's no way it could improve in terms of DRMs as they use already the less intrusive DRM you can do. The real problem are big publishers dealing with starforce and crap like that.

Actually, they could easily improve it: don't make using Steam a requirement to play the game at all, just make it a requirement to download and install the game, similar to what Stardock does with Impulse.

I just want to thank Trilarion for continuing to counter Eclipse's faulty arguments and made up facts long after I would have given up. It might be an idea to quit now though, while you still have a shred of sanity.

doesn't make sense, if you use steam to buy game why you'll want to uninstall it to play the games? Also publishers will be forced to use less user friendly DRMs my arguments aren't faulty at all :)

How is it the least intrusive form of DRM? SecuROM only requires you to activate the game once, and then it practically disappears until you reinstall the game. Steam constantly forces you to use their client. If you are online, it will verify you every time you launch the game, and force you to play their version of the game with no alternative. Even in offline mode, you must constantly use the client.

I prefer to not be bothered by third party software at all times. I also do not trust a company to manage my game catalog for me, and can take it away without notice. That sounds like very intrusive DRM, imho.

Wrong, even if you have Steam installed you can't play a new Steamwork using game without activating it first, your retail DVD is useless if you don't reactivate (which is hidden if you happen to be online as time) your game every time you install or re-install it, and even after you have activated it if you change something significant in hour hardware the offline mode is deactivated and you need to go online to reactivate it....

You can make a backup but your "backup" is just a useless waste of bytes if you don't reactivate it online after you restore it. That's again DRM, just because it's transparent for the average joe who is always online doesn't make it any less DRM.

Ok, Steam IS DRM, plane and simple. The main idea of DRM, here atleast, is that you cannot install and run your game on more than one computer.

On steam you may be able to install the game on more than one comp BUT you cannot install or run the game with another computer on the same steam account online at the same time. Then there is offline mode. Offline mode does not let you install the games or play the games online. Online gaming is a main part of a game. If you could only play lan then it is missing a main part of the game.

You could play \download\install a game from gog.com anytime on any computer(which you own). If that is not drm-free then I don't know what is.

you're talking about retail products. Of course you need to activate them on steam, but NOT the games you donwload, there's no activation because you already are downloading the game from their servers, and it's already activated.
Also Steam is no Steamworks

You missed the point. You don't uninstall Steam to play the game, you just don't have to run Steam first in order to play the game or need to continue to be connected to the internet (yes, I know about the oft malfunctioning offline mode Steam has), just like Impulse does. With Impulse, you use the client simply as a storefront and update utility, plus it validates the game upon its initial install. After that, you don't need to launch the client just to play your game, you simply launch the game.

11 pages? I'm a regular Steam user/buyer and even I know it is DRM -- albeit one I find acceptable. No idea what you guys could have been debating for this long.