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http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/13/education/13texas.html?ref=weekinreview
"Oh, this Thomas Jefferson guy must not be important. After all, he supported separation of church and state. Why not remove him from the fucking history books as an important writer?
They are destroying our history. I don't care if Republicans think that God should be an important part of America, but I do care if they are destroying our history to further their motives. Stalin did this shit. What are we, Communists? They also want to change "capitalism" to "free-market economy" because they think the term "capitalism" is offensive. You know what else is offensive? Molesting your country's history. Also, they're trying to make McCarthyism seem not as horrible as it actually was, trying to downplay the whole "Japanese internment camp" thing we did in WWII, and make Stonewall Jackson look like a national hero. These people deserve to be hit for trying to obliterate our history.
Post edited March 27, 2010 by TheCheese33
There's already a topic on this. Think it's titled "Texans rewriting history" or somesuch.
Not trying to cause any trouble, get an argument started or anything else.
I want to make three simple points. First, your argument would be a bit stronger if you spelled capitalism correctly. Second, both sides fight to have their worldview stated. Of course there is only so much room in a book so some things will have to be lessened or taken out. Finally, when you make a point of saying you do not care if one part of history is deemed unimportant (i.e. God in American history), you discredit the points you do consider important.
Again, I am not trying to start anything, but simply pointing out some things that may be of help in the future.
I hope it came across in the right manner, and thanks for hearing me out.
Post edited March 27, 2010 by Faithful
Original thread with tons of fun comments, including what you linked to :D
Hit the nail on the head there bunny-man.
This is a much more complex issue than most people are treating it (which is the consensus we seemed to come to in the other thread on this). While it is likely that there IS an ideological basis for this, it is also an attempt to cover some very vital bits of history regarding the country that are largely ignored.
And it doesn't really help that everyone pushes their own ideological agendas when they tell people about it. :p
Why this is actually a somewhat good idea: For those of you who are from the US, think back to your pre-college education. We know that the pilgrims came here because they were religiously persecuted. But why were they being religiously persecuted? What were their beliefs? What was the political climate in Europe that led to this?
Maybe you learned a few things about England. But this problem was much bigger than one island (otherwise, why go all the way across the Atlantic?), and it is something that most schools refuse to cover.
This is versus covering Thomas Jefferson. Yes, he had a large impact on our nation. But so did a lot of the founding fathers that schools don't cover. There is only so much room in the curriculum, and going into the details of Thomas Jefferson is something that could easily be covered in later education.
As it stands, all people really retain about him is: He wrote the Declaration of Independence and he had a thing for black women/liberated his slaves after his death :p
Do I think this is ideologically driven? Probably. But put aside the politics for a minute and think about the end result. It stops being black and white "evil Texas".
Post edited March 27, 2010 by Gundato
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Gundato: Hit the nail on the head there bunny-man.
This is a much more complex issue than most people are treating it (which is the consensus we seemed to come to in the other thread on this). While it is likely that there IS an ideological basis for this, it is also an attempt to cover some very vital bits of history regarding the country that are largely ignored.
And it doesn't really help that everyone pushes their own ideological agendas when they tell people about it. :p
Why this is actually a somewhat good idea: For those of you who are from the US, think back to your pre-college education. We know that the pilgrims came here because they were religiously persecuted. But why were they being religiously persecuted? What were their beliefs? What was the political climate in Europe that led to this?
Maybe you learned a few things about England. But this problem was much bigger than one island (otherwise, why go all the way across the Atlantic?), and it is something that most schools refuse to cover.
This is versus covering Thomas Jefferson. Yes, he had a large impact on our nation. But so did a lot of the founding fathers that schools don't cover. There is only so much room in the curriculum, and going into the details of Thomas Jefferson is something that could easily be covered in later education.
As it stands, all people really retain about him is: He wrote the Declaration of Independence and he had a thing for black women/liberated his slaves after his death :p
Do I think this is ideologically driven? Probably. But put aside the politics for a minute and think about the end result. It stops being black and white "evil Texas".

When I think back to what public schooling omitted, I cringe. Grade schools would have you believe that Christopher Columbus discovered America, but there is absolutely NO mention of Amerigo Vespucci or Leif Ericsson. The civil war is rarely (if ever) touched on. I never learned about the civil war until college. I knew OF it, and I knew some very basic arguments about it, but very little.
But as I said in the last thread, I don't mind the teaching of other figures, so long as it is put in context, and we aren't replacing other important figures, or making religion the primary focus of class. Some comments that have been brought forth by the Texas Board of Education have been extremely....biased.
Daily Show episode covering it, go to around the 10 minute mark for some insanity from "Ken"
Post edited March 27, 2010 by Wraith
Oh, there is definitely an insane amount of bias on both sides :p
One of the big problems here: Religion IS a primary focus, as far as this information goes. Now, I understand that you mean that it shouldn't be about one religion being "right" and another "wrong", but most people just think "Oh mah gawdz! They mentioned that religious people exist! SEPARATE THE CHURCH AND STATE!!! 1984!!!!! NO CREATIONISM!!! SPAGHETTIE MONSTERS!!!" largely because of "news outlets" like The Daily Show and the like (I enjoy the show on occasion, but Stewart is about as unbiased as O'Reilley :p).
As it stands, the curriculum is pretty damned full. Especially since elementary (and middle school, in most cases) have to waste months of every year teaching the exact same curriculum (Black History Month and Thanksgiving come to mind). Don't get me wrong, I think both are things that should be covered, just not annually :p. So there is going to be some collateral damage. Just so long as we still cover the Revolutionary War (well, more like the Continental Congress and Declaration of Independence), I can live with us skipping some of the specifics.
And don't get me started on the Civil War. I went to a pretty damned good high school and we pretty much got to the point where the Civil War started, stopped for the day, then started on the reconstruction the next morning :p.
But I also partially understand that one: We like to pretend that The Civil War was about civil rights, slavery, and all that jazz. It wasn't. It was about economics and political power, and really is nowhere near as clear cut as most non-Texan states would have you believe (admittedly, I find their motives suspect :p). And the last thing anyone wants is to be accused of glorifying the Confederacy. It sucks, but that is one of the problems with the modern news media (a relatively innocent event can quickly spiral out of control as people reproduce the story with their own biases).
Now, don't get me wrong. I am terrified for how this gets spinned. But the concept itself isn't all that horrifying to me.
I mainly posted the daily show link since they actually included some clips of the actual board members speaking some extremely insane drivel. I agree that Daily Show is biased, but what news program isn't nowadays?
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Gundato: Oh, there is definitely an insane amount of bias on both sides :p
One of the big problems here: Religion IS a primary focus, as far as this information goes. Now, I understand that you mean that it shouldn't be about one religion being "right" and another "wrong", but most people just think "Oh mah gawdz! They mentioned that religious people exist! SEPARATE THE CHURCH AND STATE!!! 1984!!!!! NO CREATIONISM!!! SPAGHETTIE MONSTERS!!!" largely because of "news outlets" like The Daily Show and the like (I enjoy the show on occasion, but Stewart is about as unbiased as O'Reilley :p).
As it stands, the curriculum is pretty damned full. Especially since elementary (and middle school, in most cases) have to waste months of every year teaching the exact same curriculum (Black History Month and Thanksgiving come to mind). Don't get me wrong, I think both are things that should be covered, just not annually :p. So there is going to be some collateral damage. Just so long as we still cover the Revolutionary War (well, more like the Continental Congress and Declaration of Independence), I can live with us skipping some of the specifics.
And don't get me started on the Civil War. I went to a pretty damned good high school and we pretty much got to the point where the Civil War started, stopped for the day, then started on the reconstruction the next morning :p.
But I also partially understand that one: We like to pretend that The Civil War was about civil rights, slavery, and all that jazz. It wasn't. It was about economics and political power, and really is nowhere near as clear cut as most non-Texan states would have you believe (admittedly, I find their motives suspect :p). And the last thing anyone wants is to be accused of glorifying the Confederacy. It sucks, but that is one of the problems with the modern news media (a relatively innocent event can quickly spiral out of control as people reproduce the story with their own biases).
Now, don't get me wrong. I am terrified for how this gets spinned. But the concept itself isn't all that horrifying to me.

How can you say you went to a very good school, and then say that they didnt teach you? Those two statements contradict each other.
Post edited March 27, 2010 by honorbuddy
While this is bad, what is happening to the mathematics curriculum in american schools is far, far worse. And that's not just Texas.
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stonebro: While this is bad, what is happening to the mathematics curriculum in american schools is far, far worse. And that's not just Texas.

If Jimmy has 4 apples in one hand, and six apples in the other, how many barrels of oil can he strong-arm from another nation?
Seriously though, I'm curious, what changes are being made to the mathematics system?
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Wraith: I mainly posted the daily show link since they actually included some clips of the actual board members speaking some extremely insane drivel. I agree that Daily Show is biased, but what news program isn't nowadays?

Also, clips of people speaking would've had more obvious edits if they had changed anything about the speeches.
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Wraith: I mainly posted the daily show link since they actually included some clips of the actual board members speaking some extremely insane drivel. I agree that Daily Show is biased, but what news program isn't nowadays?
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TheCheese33: Also, clips of people speaking would've had more obvious edits if they had changed anything about the speeches.

Not really. All you have to do is only show snippets that you can take out of context. Then you just provide the context.
Works for pretty much anyone.
Ken Mercer - Full speech
IMO, it sounds like he less about education, and sticking it more to "the armies of the far left". To be honest, I think the whole video is 10x worse than watching the tiny clip The Daily Show showed.
You see, this is the real problem with history. Politics influence the teachings too much, both on the radical right and the loony left. It was extremely obvious when I was taking a medieval history class post-Constantine, and the fact that it still goes on is extremely sad.
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Wraith: Ken Mercer - Full speech
IMO, it sounds like he less about education, and sticking it more to "the armies of the far left". To be honest, I think the whole video is 10x worse than watching the tiny clip The Daily Show showed.
You see, this is the real problem with history. Politics influence the teachings too much, both on the radical right and the loony left. It was extremely obvious when I was taking a medieval history class post-Constantine, and the fact that it still goes on is extremely sad.

Oh, wasn't talking about that one in particular. Just pointing out that you don't need to cut-and-paste to completely misrepresent what people are trying to say.
And I fully agree, people put politics ahead of almost everything. But it is important to remember that it is almost impossible to NOT apply political spin when arguing a point. Everyone who argues for why we specifically need Tommy Jefferson tends to cite some of the things that are acredited to him. And those are usually the things THEY like. Same with people who argue that we should go more into pre-American history.
In a perfect world, we would have unbiased history books. But that isn't really possible for a lot of subjects. And guess what? Those tend to be the subjects that we don't cover in school :p