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Neverwinter Nights seriesHotU: help me tweak Dexterity based Weapon Master build(10 posts)(10 posts)
(10 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted April 30, 2017
]Ok, regardless of the fact this build is a bad Idea by design, I want it anyway. Of course I also want to be able to finish the game at Hardcore D&D rules. So I need the general idea tweaked to be able to finish the game ad normal D&D rules.

Initial Stats:

- Minimum is 13 DEX, 13 INT for getting necessary feats for WM at lvl 7
- However I think a good Idea is getting:

STR: 14 (+2 to damage)
DEX: 16 (18 after getting the starting 15 levels)
CON: 15 (16 after getting the starting 15 levels)
INT: 13 ( I usually choose: Parry, Heal, Discipline)
CH: 8
WS: 9

Feats at Lvl 1:

Dodge, Mobility, Focused Weapon

Bonus Fighter Feats

Fighter Lvl 2: Expertise
Fighter Lvl 4: Spring Attack
Fighter Lvl 6: Ambidexterity
Fighter Lvl 8: Weapon Specialization ( +2 damage on focused weapon)
Fighter Lvl 10: Improved Two Weapons Fighting

Character Feats

Lvl 3: Weapon Finesse
Lvl 6: Whirlwind Attack
Lvl 9: Improved Parry
Lvl 12: Two weapons fighting
Lvl 15: Improved Critical

Level Progression:

9 Fighter
5 WeaponMaster
1 Fighter

Skills
- Parry (maxed when taking the last fighter level)
- Discipline
- Health
- Imitidate (4 levels)
- Spare points into "evaluate items" for better prices ^^.

I tried so far 3 weapon combinations

- Dual wielding Shortswords (easy to take two +3 shortswords in early game, but those just starts to suck to quickly)
- Dual wielding Handaxe (need to play one hour to get 2 decent axes, can also break chests, and slightly better critical)
- Dual wielding Rapiers (bit less chance to hit, but more damages, longer to get better weapons, but those are much better than small weapons).

I think Parry is a mandatory choice because since we are dual wielding, we have 6 Attacks, but the problem with that is that weapon master has not Parry in favourite skills list.

So we have either to choose:
- Takes just 7 levels in WeaponMaster (for increased critical range) and then go Epic Fighter
- Takes as much levels in WeaponMaster as possible, and 1 fighter level everywhile to max spare skill points in Parry Skill (in case of 2nd choice, since the best WeaponMaster Level is 28, we have 12 fighter levels, 6 of which are taken at the start).

So the level progressions could be something like:

6 Levels as Fighter
10 Levels as WeaponMaster

6 Times x
( 3 levels WeaponMaster, 1 Level Fighter,)

----
This build will put all stat points into Dex, so at some point the AC will be better withotu armor (even though there's no reason to not wear any armor), in that case I have readed somewhere to take 1 level as wizard, in order to be able to wear wizard robes. But in that case I could take just 25 levels as weaponmaster and spend some more levels as fighter.

Something like:

6 levels as Fighter
10 Levels as WeaponMaster

7 times
(2 Levels as WeaponMaster, 1 Level As Fighter)

1 Time (Do this when Armor become useless)
(1 Level as Wizard, 1 Level as WeaponMaster, 1 Level As Fighter)



.
.
.
___
Post edited April 30, 2017 by DarioGOII
Posted April 30, 2017
Low AC will be your main concern while DWing. In HotU, that would end up around +6 Tumble AC by campaign end.

That requires a Tumble class sprinkled in there somewhere for an AC dump. With enough UMD, rogue will allow you to use class-specific items like the mage robes and use both arcane and divine scrolls for prebuff. It will reduce your BAB by 1 but worth the AB loss in the long run. With 3 levels, you can protect your WM's DEX AC.

A kukrimaster will crit more than half the the hits with the keen property. That requires exotic proficiency of course.

Monk is another option and better AC with Owl pots, but without UMD will not address your plan to use mage robes. Bard's also good for Tumble and UMD and can dump to Spellcraft if you have spare skills to take advantage.

There will be no XP penalty inserting Tumble dumps if human or dwarf. Dwarf better saves vs. spells and boost to CON. Human extra feat and skill points.
Post edited April 30, 2017 by Chipster
Posted May 01, 2017
Thanks for the ideas
Monk and Rogue are both interesting, however the most interesting part are the extra feats they get in their first levels. I won't get much skill points from Fighter / WM so basically I could save skill points for Tumble/ UMD and then take 1 level in Rogue/Monk every while (thus requiring much self-control for not spending the points immediatly).

OR take many levels in Rogue for the sneak damage, but then take also the Hiding/Sneak skills.

Apart the lower BAB, this sounds good because anyway I will not get too many advantages from Fighter bonus feats past lvl 16.
Post edited May 01, 2017 by DarioGOII
Posted May 01, 2017
Ok here's my computations:

Skill points:

Rogue gives 10 skill points (assuming INT=14) per level, while Fighter and WeaponMaster only 4.

So basically I can choose 4 skills, plus 1 additional skill (assuming I'll max it) for every 6.666 levels as rogue.
I have to waste 4 points on Intimidate, and I need tumble to reach Lvl 30 for AC +6. Also Rogue gets 1 less BAB and 1 less BAB each 6 levels. I also dropped the idea of using Parry, since I readed it is pretty useless in NWN1 (and requires anyway maxing skill points + 2 feats, which are bonuses I can spend elsewhere).

Interesting skills list:

R = Rogue, W = in WeaponMaster, F = in Fighter

[_WF] Discipline
[R__] Hide (reduced by armor)
[R__] Move Silently(reduced by armor)
[R__] Tumble (at least 30 points, also because required in certain epic Feats)
[R__] Use Magic Devices
[R__] Disable Traps (+ 2 if spending 5 on Set Traps)
[R__] Appraise (probably not a priority maxing this out, but I think it can greatly help)
[R__] Search
[RWF] Heal (probably do not need full skill level, better used for healing damage to stats than to healing HP)

Basically I have to save lot of skillpoints, and then spend them everywhile (when taking Rogue Levels). Also
I would start with 1 Rogue level (because of extra skill points), then take another one as 15th level.

Possible Level Progressions:

.
.
7 Levels as rogue (5 skills, abundant), -2 BAB compared to pure fighter, sneak damage 4d6

13 levels as Weapon Master
7 levels as rogue
20 levels as Fighter

- Rogue
- Fighter (6)
- Weapon Master(7)

- Rogue
- WeaponMaster (3)
- Fighter (2)

- Rogue
- Fighter (4)

- Rogue
- Fighter (4)

- Rogue
- Fighter (4)

- Rogue
- Weapon Master (3)

- Rogue

.
.
13 Levels as rogue (6 skills, abundant), -4 BAB compared to pure fighter, sneak damage 7d6

With this build is probably worth having "Move Silently" and "hide" maxed.

13 levels as Rogue
20 levels as Fighter
7 levels as Weapon Master

- Rogue
- Fighter (6)

- Rogue
- WeaponMaster (6)

- Rogue
- WeaponMaster
- Fighter 4

nine times:
- Rogue
- Fighter

- Fighter
- Rogue

.
.
Skills of choice:

13 Levels as rogue

- Move Silently
- Hide
- Use Magic Devices
- Tumble
- Discipline
- Half points in Heal / Half points in Appraise

7 Levels as rogue

- Use Magic Devices
- Tumble
- Discipline
- Search
- Disable Traps
- Spare points on Set Traps

How do that looks ?? ^^
Post edited May 01, 2017 by DarioGOII
Posted May 01, 2017
Well, building for full epic certainly allows more options than one optimized for 28 levels as is the case for HotU. Since your request was for a HotU build, let's address that need first. You should probably post a separate topic for a full epic build.

Here's an example of my first HotU WM build, a human kukrimaster, that you can use for reference or play "as is":

Abilities: STR 13(14), DEX 17(24), CON 14, WIS 8, INT 14, CHA 8 (all ability bumps to DEX)

Class split (pre-epic): Ftr 15/ WM 5

Feats (pre-epic): WP Exotic, WF: Kukri, Wpn Finesse, Dodge, Expertise, KD, Mobility, WS: Kukri, Blind Fight, Spring Attack,
ImpCrit: Kukri, Ambidexterity, WWA, IKD, TWF, WoC: Kukri, ImpTWF

Class split (epic): Ftr3/ WM2/ Rog3 (Rog @ 21, 25, 27)

Feats (epic): EWF: Kukri, EWS: Kukri, Armor Skin, Grt STR, Epic Prowess
Feats (epic, rogue), ref only: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge

Final class split @Lvl 28: Ftr 18/ WM 7/ Rog 3

Skills allotted, final: Disable Trap 22(26), Discipline 31(33), Intimidate 4(3), Open Lock 1(8), Search 19(21), Set Trap 6(15), Spellcraft 13(15), Tumble 30(37), UMD 30(29)

I chose to postpone the first rogue level until Lvl 21 and muddle along as a pure warrior through pre-epic mostly to get all the feats needed during that period. I preferred KD/IKD over PA/Cleave but the STR requirement is adequate to switch that, if desired. I did vest into traps detection/management and also saves vs. spells in this build but you could opt for stealth instead. But stealth's really not needed IMO. Invis pots are cheap enough and, in most cases, will work better than trying to retrigger stealth during combat without SD levels. And IIRC, there are scrolls of Grtr Sanctuary in HotU that UMDers can use.

One could also grab an extra feat by DWing finessable small martial weapons as an alternative. Daggers and shorties have the same damage type (piercing) and crit range (19-20). I like kukris because they will crit more often (18-20) and that +6 slashing from EWS will stack with each crit. The base damage has less significance than crit frequency and TBH, I didn't have any single feats on my "must have" list anyway.

BTW, Blind Fight is arguably the most important feat for any melee toon to select where the possibility of facing concealed foes exists. It should be #1 on the list. Ranged attackers can bypass it but even so, will waste more of their precious enhanced ammo taking that route. Concealment will easily neutralize any AB so re-rolls are the only way to avoid swinging/shooting at the air unnecessarily.

Using the items available in HotU, this build will achieve a final attack of 36 AB + 6 AB (DEX cap) +10 wpn enhancement - 2 AB DW penalty for a progression of +50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+45, hasted would be 7 APR (+50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+50/+45). Stash Bless and Aid pots for any occasion where that amount of AB is not adequate (Deekin's song will help as well).

The AC with capped DEX and robes would be 25 + 13 DEX + 7 Isaac's sequencer for 45 AC plus any other sources of deflection, natural and dodge AC to tack on. Don't know whether you know this or not, but sequencers can be charged via items like scrolls as long as the target is suitable (i.e. can't target a sequencer with a "caster only" buff effect, like Mestil's Sheath, for instance).

Your biggest deficiency will be saves. Other than Reflex, they are really bad. That's why the choice of IKD over Cleave to lay all spellcasters on their back quickly and also get automatic sneak damage while they are prone.

A couple unavoidable weaknesses in the build progression:
Uncanny Dodge (Rog 3) not in place until Level 27.
Only WM5 (increased multiplier) applies until Level 24, but with the kukri's intrinsic crit range, ImpCrit and the craftable Keen property (Ch 2), there are adequate crit opportunities without ki criticals during that time.

Also, if you choose not to use Epic Gloves of Discipline, I would not invest any points into Discipline since your AC will always be higher than the skill check. The epic gloves add +20 to the skill, reaching a level of 53 but eventually your AC will begin to surpass that level.
Post edited May 01, 2017 by Chipster
Posted May 02, 2017
avatar
Chipster: Well, building for full epic certainly allows more options than one optimized for 28 levels as is the case for HotU. Since your request was for a HotU build, let's address that need first. You should probably post a separate topic for a full epic build.

Here's an example of my first HotU WM build, a human kukrimaster, that you can use for reference or play "as is":

Abilities: STR 13(14), DEX 17(24), CON 14, WIS 8, INT 14, CHA 8 (all ability bumps to DEX)

Class split (pre-epic): Ftr 15/ WM 5

Feats (pre-epic): WP Exotic, WF: Kukri, Wpn Finesse, Dodge, Expertise, KD, Mobility, WS: Kukri, Blind Fight, Spring Attack,
ImpCrit: Kukri, Ambidexterity, WWA, IKD, TWF, WoC: Kukri, ImpTWF

Class split (epic): Ftr3/ WM2/ Rog3 (Rog @ 21, 25, 27)

Feats (epic): EWF: Kukri, EWS: Kukri, Armor Skin, Grt STR, Epic Prowess
Feats (epic, rogue), ref only: Evasion, Uncanny Dodge

Final class split @Lvl 28: Ftr 18/ WM 7/ Rog 3

Skills allotted, final: Disable Trap 22(26), Discipline 31(33), Intimidate 4(3), Open Lock 1(8), Search 19(21), Set Trap 6(15), Spellcraft 13(15), Tumble 30(37), UMD 30(29)

I chose to postpone the first rogue level until Lvl 21 and muddle along as a pure warrior through pre-epic mostly to get all the feats needed during that period. I preferred KD/IKD over PA/Cleave but the STR requirement is adequate to switch that, if desired. I did vest into traps detection/management and also saves vs. spells in this build but you could opt for stealth instead. But stealth's really not needed IMO. Invis pots are cheap enough and, in most cases, will work better than trying to retrigger stealth during combat without SD levels. And IIRC, there are scrolls of Grtr Sanctuary in HotU that UMDers can use.

One could also grab an extra feat by DWing finessable small martial weapons as an alternative. Daggers and shorties have the same damage type (piercing) and crit range (19-20). I like kukris because they will crit more often (18-20) and that +6 slashing from EWS will stack with each crit. The base damage has less significance than crit frequency and TBH, I didn't have any single feats on my "must have" list anyway.

BTW, Blind Fight is arguably the most important feat for any melee toon to select where the possibility of facing concealed foes exists. It should be #1 on the list. Ranged attackers can bypass it but even so, will waste more of their precious enhanced ammo taking that route. Concealment will easily neutralize any AB so re-rolls are the only way to avoid swinging/shooting at the air unnecessarily.

Using the items available in HotU, this build will achieve a final attack of 36 AB + 6 AB (DEX cap) +10 wpn enhancement - 2 AB DW penalty for a progression of +50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+45, hasted would be 7 APR (+50/+45/+40/+35/+50/+50/+45). Stash Bless and Aid pots for any occasion where that amount of AB is not adequate (Deekin's song will help as well).

The AC with capped DEX and robes would be 25 + 13 DEX + 7 Isaac's sequencer for 45 AC plus any other sources of deflection, natural and dodge AC to tack on. Don't know whether you know this or not, but sequencers can be charged via items like scrolls as long as the target is suitable (i.e. can't target a sequencer with a "caster only" buff effect, like Mestil's Sheath, for instance).

Your biggest deficiency will be saves. Other than Reflex, they are really bad. That's why the choice of IKD over Cleave to lay all spellcasters on their back quickly and also get automatic sneak damage while they are prone.

A couple unavoidable weaknesses in the build progression:
Uncanny Dodge (Rog 3) not in place until Level 27.
Only WM5 (increased multiplier) applies until Level 24, but with the kukri's intrinsic crit range, ImpCrit and the craftable Keen property (Ch 2), there are adequate crit opportunities without ki criticals during that time.

Also, if you choose not to use Epic Gloves of Discipline, I would not invest any points into Discipline since your AC will always be higher than the skill check. The epic gloves add +20 to the skill, reaching a level of 53 but eventually your AC will begin to surpass that level.
Sneak Damage doesn't crit - and since that build has virtually no damage outside of SA, Weapon Master seems completely pointless. With Weapon Master you want to go all-out STR based for more crittable damage, or skip WM completely and instead focus on your Rogue class more.
Post edited May 02, 2017 by jimbobslimbob
Posted May 02, 2017
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jimbobslimbob: Sneak Damage doesn't crit - and since that build has virtually no damage outside of SA, Weapon Master seems completely pointless. With Weapon Master you want to go all-out STR based for more crittable damage, or skip WM completely and instead focus on your Rogue class more.
That's more a biased blanket statement than a useful comment from a source that has little experience optimizing a DEX build and understanding how to play it. It's also not true. The topic is about a HotU build.

Who stated SA damage crits anyway? SA mechanics are common knowledge. SA is just a minor perk in the build. The key benefit of Rog 3 is Evasion to avoid reflex damage, Uncanny Dodge to retain all DEX AC and useful skill dumps.

Apparently, you have forgotten about weaponry boosts available in HotU.

Damage per hit would be 1-4base slash + 6 EWSslash +10 wpn enhancement + 2-12 element +2 STR slash + 2 slash bull pot = 23-36, 69-108 per crit. With keen prop, crits on 10-20 (55% of hits) at 7 APR hasted. Notice, I ignored sneak damage in the calculation. You can also factor in the effect of scroll buffs like Divine Favor (magical damage that will crit) and damage boost from bard song, slash damage which also crits.

STR focus is typically better vs. DR than DEX but a +10 weapon will penetrate all DR except Epic Warding so that is not a factor in this case.

Bottom line: It is not necessary to cause more damage than is needed to kill a foe. Dead is dead.

Obviously a STR build will cause more dmg/hit but be open to more reciprocal damage, especially vs. archers and other ranged attacks. Also, a DW DEX build will always reach a higher AB than a STR version due to the DEX 15 prereq of Ambi. A DEX version will be able to avoid most evocation spell damage via reflex, while a STR-focused build is a sitting duck for such spells.

So, your point is typical about builds in general. STR for damage. DEX for defense. I think we've got it.

WM 7 is there for crit multiplier, extended crit range and +1 AB. That seemed obvious to me. It's not pointless.
Posted May 02, 2017
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jimbobslimbob: With Weapon Master you want to go all-out STR based for more crittable damage, or skip WM completely and instead focus on your Rogue class more.
I agree. Dex is best left to the rogues who have multiple uses for it.

But I guess it could be seen as an aesthetic choice, since the original campaigns are made easy enough to play almost any way you like. That and the OP says he realizes it is a bad idea.

Still, Dex fighter probably won't be much fun against the final boss, but there are ways to avoid that.

I much prefer to pummel the final boss, than avoid him.
Post edited May 02, 2017 by PeterScott
Posted May 03, 2017
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jimbobslimbob: With Weapon Master you want to go all-out STR based for more crittable damage, or skip WM completely and instead focus on your Rogue class more.
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PeterScott: I agree. Dex is best left to the rogues who have multiple uses for it.

But I guess it could be seen as an aesthetic choice, since the original campaigns are made easy enough to play almost any way you like. That and the OP says he realizes it is a bad idea.

Still, Dex fighter probably won't be much fun against the final boss, but there are ways to avoid that.

I much prefer to pummel the final boss, than avoid him.
Amen to that! Just seemed a bit of a bonkers build/idea to me. Don't mean any offense by that, just wanted to make sure they were aware of its severe limitations.

If it were me, I would go STR based with the build instead and pick up the minimum DEX required for any feat pre-requisites. WM and a DEX-based build just makes no sense.

Anyway, whatever you end up with, good luck!
Posted May 03, 2017
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Chipster: That's more a biased blanket statement than a useful comment from a source that has little experience optimizing a DEX build and understanding how to play it. It's also not true. The topic is about a HotU build.
It is true, no matter what way you look at it. Weapon Master needs crittable damage (or some other trick like Devastating Critical) - or else you may as well skip it completely in favour of something else that would better play to the build's strengths. This build has very little damage outside of weapon enchantments.
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Chipster: Who stated SA damage crits anyway? SA mechanics are common knowledge. SA is just a minor perk in the build. The key benefit of Rog 3 is Evasion to avoid reflex damage, Uncanny Dodge to retain all DEX AC and useful skill dumps.
The builder may not have been aware of it - I was simply pointing it out.
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Chipster: Apparently, you have forgotten about weaponry boosts available in HotU.
Nope, I didn't. Every single build can get access to those, so it makes little difference.
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Chipster: Damage per hit would be 1-4base slash + 6 EWSslash +10 wpn enhancement + 2-12 element +2 STR slash + 2 slash bull pot = 23-36, 69-108 per crit. With keen prop, crits on 10-20 (55% of hits) at 7 APR hasted. Notice, I ignored sneak damage in the calculation. You can also factor in the effect of scroll buffs like Divine Favor (magical damage that will crit) and damage boost from bard song, slash damage which also crits.
Just think of what could be achieved with more STR - and even better - a two-handed weapon. Lots of base damage and lots of crittable damage for massive hits. Not to say you cannot do it this way, I am simply trying to illustrate how much is being "wasted" in the build. If the OP didn't want help and/or critique, they wouldn't have posted asking for help. Let's also not forget that the off-hand weapon is also saddled with even less damage due to the 0.5 STR "multiplier".
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Chipster: Bottom line: It is not necessary to cause more damage than is needed to kill a foe. Dead is dead.
Indeed. Doesn't stop the build from being a low damage build though. The fact of the matter remains: it does very little actual damage outside of enchantments.
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Chipster: WM 7 is there for crit multiplier, extended crit range and +1 AB. That seemed obvious to me. It's not pointless.
It really is. Replacing the WM class with something more beneficial to the build would help it leaps and bounds - or going down the STR route instead, to maximise the usefulness of WM. 1 AB and extra crits on this build really IS pointless.
Post edited May 03, 2017 by jimbobslimbob
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Neverwinter Nights seriesHotU: help me tweak Dexterity based Weapon Master build(10 posts)(10 posts)
(10 posts)