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Shalmendo: How about the Stanley Parable?
[...]
Yes, I agree

And it is not so much about impossible spaces, but spaces that use a difference set of logic than euclidean. it often comes out as impossible, because it is what we are used to, but if you look at something like HyperRogue it is just 'different', not 'impossible'.
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Starmaker: Many tile-based videogames are euclidean, indeed, go out of their way to be as euclidean as possible (hexes, amortized costs, fractional movement costs), others (like blobbers) use Manhattan distance but it's not the focus of the game and no one cares. DROD is all about optimizing movement in a Chebyshev space. Its sole scoring metric is a move counter.
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amok: aye, but it is not about the geometry as such, but how you move within it. The geometry are arguably Euclidean. take away the character and how it moves, and that's more or less what you are left with.
When you take away the character and how he moves, it's all just pixels on a flat screen.

Now, because everythin boils down to pixels on a flat screen, several things make DROD notable.
- It's a game about advanced math.
- the Chebyshev distance is an intentional design decision, presented front and center, and is the only scoring metric. Even chess doesn't feature it as prominently, because how fast a king can cross the board straight vs diagonally is never an issue in actual play.
- what the game represents using it (a human walking over a tiled floor) cannot be realized in the real world even with constraints. Manhattan distance exists IRL, it's in the name; it models and corresponds to an actual lived IRL seamless 3d experience without the need for mathematical constructs. Chebyshev distance is "what if I charge you the same amount of arbitrary points for moving diagonally".
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amok: aye, but it is not about the geometry as such, but how you move within it. The geometry are arguably Euclidean. take away the character and how it moves, and that's more or less what you are left with.
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Starmaker: When you take away the character and how he moves, it's all just pixels on a flat screen.
that's a bit silly, as it boils everything and nothing down to... well... nothing. We can discuss the geometry of a virtual space without relating it to characters and movements within it, just by how it is constructed. or, if you like, how the pixels have been arraigned. You can have a virtual space with a geography, without any characters. Going with this, the virtual geography do not need to be flat, even though your representation (the screen) is. This would be to argue that the world is flat, because I have an image (i.e. an representation) of the earth and it is flat.

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Starmaker: Now, because everythin boils down to pixels on a flat screen, several things make DROD notable.
- It's a game about advanced math.
- the Chebyshev distance is an intentional design decision, presented front and center, and is the only scoring metric. Even chess doesn't feature it as prominently, because how fast a king can cross the board straight vs diagonally is never an issue in actual play.
- what the game represents using it (a human walking over a tiled floor) cannot be realized in the real world even with constraints. Manhattan distance exists IRL, it's in the name; it models and corresponds to an actual lived IRL seamless 3d experience without the need for mathematical constructs. Chebyshev distance is "what if I charge you the same amount of arbitrary points for moving diagonally".
and then, the above, again becomes not a discussion of the geometry, but about the vectors and movement space within the set geometry. even though the game score you this numbers.
I like portals; it's like gluing. Those linguortals are cool too; mmm, sausages. But that's not what's asked for here, just wanted an excuse to mention linguortals.
Is this a disguised HP Lovecraft thread?
Post edited March 18, 2018 by Crosmando
Reading this thread reminded me of an old article that discussed the basic ideas behind non-Euclidean geometry. It started out with talking about the Euclid's fifth postulate (the parallel postulate) and how changing it would change the geometry. That is how we get spherical and hyperbolic geometry. These are probably the most commonly cited non-Euclidean geometries. HyperRouge is an example of a game using hyperbolic geometry.

Later it talked about changing the third postulate (the distance postulate) rather that the fifth, resulting in 'taxicab geometry'. More formally, a plane geometry using a Manhattan distance is a non-Euclidean geometry. Sokoban would then be a game set in a non-Euclidean geometry. Another variant would be to use Chebyshev distance, as used by the DROD series.

So from a mathematical standpoint, Starmaker is correct. However I understand why amok does not want a list composed of 98% grid-based gamed. The mental step needed to understand moving in a Manhattan geometry is much smaller that the mental leap needed to navigate a hyperbolic plane.
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amok: HyperRouge
Isn't that the reddest anything can be?
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amok: HyperRogue
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SirPrimalform: Isn't that the reddest anything can be?
whoops... umm... I mean... i have no idea what you are talking about, i am sure....
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SirPrimalform: Isn't that the reddest anything can be?
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amok: whoops... umm... I mean... i have no idea what you are talking about, i am sure....
:D
EDIT: Since I have originally written this post, I have learned a bit more about how "non-Euclidean" means for mathematicians (or rather, I did know what it means before, but now I know why). My blogpost "non-Euclidean geometry and games" explains these things and gives lots of good examples of games with weird spaces. (Unfortunately I am not allowed to link to it, but it should be easy to find.)

TL;DR:

* Non-Euclidean is a short for "non-Euclidean geometry". Antichamber, Portal, and similar games change the topology of the game world, but do not change its geometry.

* Grid-based games such as DROD are not non-Euclidean either. The confusion comes from having several things named after Euclid. "Non-Euclidean" means that it breaks Euclid's parallel axiom, not that it uses a metric other than the Euclidean metric. Grid-based games or "eight movement directions" games have properties very similar to continuous games.
Post edited March 29, 2020 by zenorogue
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Pouyou-pouyou: Fragments of Euclid : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEVTMlz0ZRE
That is incredibly cool, thanks for bringing it up!
MirrorMoon EP has this I think (not sure)
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SirPrimalform: That is incredibly cool, thanks for bringing it up!
You're welcome, enjoy !
The game isn't incredibly long, it took me about 1h30 to finish it. A nice little indie game.
Post edited March 19, 2018 by Pouyou-pouyou
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Pouyou-pouyou: You're welcome, enjoy !
The game isn't incredibly long, it took me about 1h30 to finish it. A nice little indie game.
Yeah, it took me about an hour last night but it was an enjoyable hour. I hope they develop a full commercial version one day.
I saw this renderer someone made. It's not quite a game yet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pmSPlYHxoY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tl40xidKF-4