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nightcraw1er.488: Take a nail, if you want it in, or you want out...
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toxicTom: Exactly.

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dtgreene: Why do I have to run a Web browser (one of the most complicated pieces of software that a desktop user will ever run, other than the OS's core ..., just to install
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toxicTom: Nailed it. But most people aren't aware of this. Also because browsers got really good at hiding what they actually do. Browsers are a window into a very hostile world, and come with coatings upon coating against all those hazards. But for most people a browser is just a natural part of the system - and who can blame them. Everything needs to be convenient and at your fingertips... How many people actually use uMatrix or even NoScript, and actually understand what those do?
Or use a browser like Lynx, which doesn't even support the features that make addons like uMatrix or NoScript necessary?

(If an ad comes through on Lynx, it doesn't bother me unless the ad is problematic for some reason other than the way it's presented.)

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toxicTom: As a software dev myself, with many connections, I can confirm that this is exactly how it is. Our company (GIS) is in the comfortable position that our customers gladly pay for features that we're eager to implement ourselves. So our product is far from feature-complete, and probably never will be - but that's just the area I'm working in - there's always more to do. In other areas there is just that much to do and improve.
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teceem: Often when software is at the end-of-development stage, minor improvements can still be found/implemented. These days, the fact that they're 'minor' can be covered up by switching to a subscription service.
The other alternative is 'bloating it up'. Hey, our image editing software can now make your coffee, open the window blinds and end world hunger!
Like Emacs in the old days?

Or web browsers in the modern era?

There's some jokes about Emacs:
* Eight Megabytes And Constantly Swapping. (Back when 8 megabytes was a lot of memory; I'm pretty sure a modern web browser takes more than that much RAM even just displaying a blank page (about:blank) and nothing else.)
* Emacs is a great operating system; it just lacks a text editor.


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teceem: Hey, our image editing software can now make your coffee, open the window blinds and end world hunger!
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toxicTom: using (Env.kaching(amount))
{
SaveWorld(amount);
}
load_etherium_mining_program()
while (true) {
dispatch_etherium_mining_program()
}

(How do you know there's nothing like this going on behind the scenes?)
Post edited May 29, 2021 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: Or use a browser like Lynx, which doesn't even support the features that make addons like uMatrix or NoScript necessary?
I adore Lynx, and what it stands for. IMO every web-page should be working in Lynx, unless there are very good reasons to not do so (like the stuff I do - Interactive maps need images and Javascript, but at least all our solutions work without any third-party-includes

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dtgreene: (How do you know there's nothing like this going on behind the scenes?)
Because my dying graphics card would make a lot of noise ;-)
low rated
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Orkhepaj: No trolling pls, even if you are a Linux fanatic.
This is a serious thread, helping to decide for those who're thinking about switching to Linux.
Thank you!
I thought about responding to individual arguments, then i saw this comment, and i realized something... I wonder if anyone else can guess what that something is.
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dtgreene: (How do you know there's nothing like this going on behind the scenes?)
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toxicTom: Because my dying graphics card would make a lot of noise ;-)
first 2 lines of dispatch_etherium_mining_program:
static int iters = 0;
if(iters % 1000) return;
Post edited May 29, 2021 by kohlrak
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toxicTom: Because my dying graphics card would make a lot of noise ;-)
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kohlrak: first 2 lines of dispatch_etherium_mining_program:
static int iters = 0;
if(iters % 1000) return;
You forgot the line "iters++;"; otherwise the mining program wouldn't run at all. (And perhaps there needs to be a sleep or timer in there as well.)
low rated
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kohlrak: first 2 lines of dispatch_etherium_mining_program:
static int iters = 0;
if(iters % 1000) return;
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dtgreene: You forgot the line "iters++;"; otherwise the mining program wouldn't run at all. (And perhaps there needs to be a sleep or timer in there as well.)
I only put the first 2 lines, and they weren't smart enough to put the ++ in the conditional. That said, in that scenario, it would always run, since it starts at 0. As for sleeper, I was having trouble figuring out where i wnated to put that, tbh.
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teceem: Isn't there a word for this phobia - the fear of missing out on (any) updates?
As I see it, a lot of software companies want to stay relevant (keep existing customers paying) while their existing software has reached the end of its development years ago. I can't blame them from their POV, but I won't be turned into a milking-cow.
But I assume that you're mostly talking about free / open source software. I'm pretty sure that this choco won't update my DAW and all VST plugins installed.
Updates are not only about new features but also about bug fixes or security related updates.

Imyself hate the software as service model and don’t use the very latest versions of 3DCoat for digital sculpting or Corel Painter for digital painting. The versions I bought a while ago do the job well enough for me and my use case.

Chocolatey doesn’t only provide OSS. The package manager itself is open source, but the packages you install with it don’t have to be.
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4-vektor: Updates are not only about new features but also about bug fixes or security related updates.
Linux users have an option if they only want the security and other critical bug fixes and not the new features or breaking changes: Just use a distro like debian, alma, or rocky.
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Orkhepaj: I've come across an article about win10 vs Linux distros.

...

Which points do you don't agree with?
If would you add any points what are those?

here is the article:
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Orkhepaj:
I read the beginning:

“Make a list of the programs you use every day. Done? Great. Now compare them to this list of software that's not natively available on Linux systems:”

* Adobe Photoshop - for example use Photoshop CC installer for Linux, or how about Gimp (also available on Windows, and without “software as a service” crap)? Unless you’re in a professional environment and depend on plugins or specific functionality and a gated Adobe ecosystem it’s more than enough for almost all users.

* Microsoft Office - LibreOffice. Pretty much the same situation as with Adobe products. Or install MS Office using PlayOnLinux or a VM.

* Dreamweaver - Use Wine and run it on Linux. Or use BlueGriffon, KompoZer, SeaMonkey...

* 7-Zip - There are tons of file compression utilities that do the same job as 7zip. On both Windows and Linux.

* Final Cut Pro - DaVinci Resolve, which is a top quality professional tool which is also used in large movies. Even the free version, which I’m using, is awesome. Other tools for the “average” user are Kdenlive, OpenShot, Lightworks, Shotcut...

* Outlook - Use Outlook Email via Prospect Mail on Linux, or use Thunderbird with plugins.

* IrfanView - Ugh, IrfanView. I hate it. Better use XnView, I use it on both Windows and Linux.

“Even in cases where Linux software is available, it often lags behind its Windows counterpart.”

Which is not even an argument if you install Windows software via VM or Wine on Linux.

“If you're in the market for a new Windows machine, you have one choice: Windows 10. Sure, there are a couple of slight variations, such as Pro, S, and Enterprise, but they are all essentially the same product.
But if you're a first-time user looking for a new Linux machine? It's time to go back to school. There are well over 600 different Linux distros you can choose from.”

What kind of argument is that supposed to be? What a load of rubbish. Go with one of the 5 most used distros and you’re done.

“Yes, we know, Windows is far from perfect. The operating system has bugs, and since Microsoft transformed Windows 10 into something resembling a perma-beta release, the issues are arguably worse than ever.
But look at it this way: Windows 10 is now running on half a billion devices. The silent majority don't experience any problems.”

The silent majority doesn’t even notice malware, security flaws, viruses until it’s too late. And the silent majority with problems is... silent. Another bogus argument.

“If you made 77 percent of the world start using a Linux-based desktop computer tomorrow, we guarantee you'd see infinitely more posts complaining about things not working than you do for Windows.”

Someone’s been gazing into their crystal ball a bit too deeply. Nice hypothetical strawman. Let me do the same: I guarantee you’d see fewer posts about viruses, find support for older hardware much quicker and more easily, Nvidia would stop being such a dickhead and provide full Linux support and stop putting roadblocks in the way of proper Linux drivers.

“If something does go drastically wrong with your Windows machine, you have several avenues open to you. Microsoft itself offers live text chat and telephone support, while every PC repair shop technician in the country is familiar with the operating system and how it works.
If you use Linux, you're limited to a few specialist companies and the dedicated online forums. And in case you're not aware, the forums are not easy places to get help if you're a "noob." ”

If you use Windows, try to get help on the Windows forum, and you can be 100% sure you’ll get a canned response in the vein of “did you uninstall the driver? Did you reboot? Did you reinstall the driver? Did you unplug all USB devices?”... People in the MS help forum are constantly complaining and pissed off about this constant stream of canned responses without answering user questions or helping with problems. And if something goes drastically wrong, you’ll hear “We recommend a fresh Windows install” or other crap like that.

You get bad responses in a Linux forum? Go to a different “noob” friendly forum. You’ll get 100 times more unfriendly responses on the plentitude of Windows related forums.

‘Windows typically gets new drivers first, closely followed by macOS. Linux-based systems are lucky if they receive any drivers. The upshot is the Linux community develops open-source drivers that ship with Linux distros.
We're not knocking the people that work on such drivers; they're largely doing a great job. But the truth is they're often incomplete or lacking features. And because they don't have the parent company's official support, they won't receive any help if they can't make something work.’

Windows typically abandons support for older hardware. It gets new drivers first? I’m wondering why....
I’m so relieved they’re not knocking on people who work on drivers for hardware that MS decided not to support anymore.

“Linux is complicated. Don't say it's not. It is! And we're not talking about the layout of the desktop or where to find various settings—a new user can get up to speed on that stuff in a few days.
I'm talking about using the operating system day-to-day. If you've run Linux for 20 years, then sure, it seems simple. For someone coming from the plug-and-play world of Windows, even something as simple as installing a program requires research. It's not intuitive.
A true Linux operating system is never finished. Things are always breaking and need fixing. Most ordinary users don't have the time or the inclination to fight a running battle with their computer.”

Do I honestly have to reply to this?

Windows is complicated. Don’t say it’s not. It is! Every update might break your system, your system settings, drivers, etc. for no apparent reason, and you’ll spend hours if not days to find the reason and maybe a solution to the problem, which might even be a clean install of the whole OS. If you’ve run Windows for 20 years, then sure, it seems simple. For someone coming from the world of Linux package managers, even something simple as installing a program on Windows requires research. It’s not intuitive. A true Microsoft operating system is never finished. Things are always breaking and need fixing. Most ordinary users don't have the time or the inclination to fight a running battle with their computer.

I really needed to get this out of my system. Feeling better now. The article is pretty bad. I wouldn’t mind well put arguments, but this is just a random collection of half-truths or nonsense while ignoring the problems a lot of Windows users are confronted with on a regular basis.
Post edited May 29, 2021 by 4-vektor
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4-vektor: Updates are not only about new features but also about bug fixes or security related updates.
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dtgreene: Linux users have an option if they only want the security and other critical bug fixes and not the new features or breaking changes: Just use a distro like debian, alma, or rocky.
Oh, I agree 100%. It’s good to have that choice.
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Orkhepaj: Linux is not more stable from my experience
one must be really talented to force Linux to CTD or kernel panic. Had zero reboots or CTDs for years (not counting these that were initiated by faulty games) so what's your trick to make it happen?
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hummer010: Run Arch, use the arch wiki. In fact, the reason I use Arch is because I found I was using the Arch wiki so much troubleshooting other distro's, that I might as well try Arch.
I'm on Debian and I use Arch wiki as well. all packages and core operations are the same, just some differences in installing and versions. Gives good starting point and often eliminates any need to look further.
Post edited May 29, 2021 by djoxyk
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djoxyk: one must be really talented to force Linux to CTD or kernel panic.
Nope, all you need to do is enter the following command, as root:
# echo c > /proc/sysrq-trigger
and you'll get a kernel panic.

(Note that this is an intentional feature of the kernel, not a bug. I'm pretty sure there's some way this can be disabled, and it does at least require root access.)

Edit: The Windows counterpart involves a registry edit:
https://social.technet.microsoft.com/wiki/contents/articles/6529.how-to-manually-initiate-a-windows-stop-error-bsod-and-create-a-dump-file.aspx
Post edited May 29, 2021 by dtgreene
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4-vektor: If you use Windows, try to get help on the Windows forum, and you can be 100% sure you’ll get a canned response in the vein of “did you uninstall the driver? Did you reboot? Did you reinstall the driver? Did you unplug all USB devices?”... People in the MS help forum are constantly complaining and pissed off about this constant stream of canned responses without answering user questions or helping with problems. And if something goes drastically wrong, you’ll hear “We recommend a fresh Windows install” or other crap like that.
You forgot the "you need a better computer".
I must say that for the most Windows problems I had to search for a solution, 99% comes from Steam, some Blog or sites like SuperUser.com, not even worth trying to check any website that has Microsoft or Windows in the adress. Last time I checked MS support needed an account just to read the articles.

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4-vektor: Things are always breaking and need fixing. Most ordinary users don't have the time or the inclination to fight a running battle with their computer.
Actually, more and more people on my circle are start using the phone as a primary work device, because of that precise reason. From tech people to absolutelly "I did even know Android has a file manager so I can transfer files, great, thanks".


Rant: the more I think about it, thre's no way current computers with Windows will stay relevant for long. Since Apple is not that popular on Europe and Goggle didn't get European fundings to give away ChromeBooks on schools, ARM is taking over x86 for the general user and Android will probably do the same.
I would even get so far as saying that the current pandemic situation saved Windows from a premature death.
The main reasons to use Windows (and not Linux):

1. You have some (usually professional) specialized software that you at least feel you have to use e.g. for your work, and it is not available for Linux, and you don't want to take your chance trying to make it work with WINE.

2. The company you work for (your employee) configures your work laptop with Windows and everything related to it, like ActiveDirectory Domains etc., so replacing it with Linux yourself and trying to figure it out how and whether you can achieve them with Linux is extra work, and the company policy might even forbid you from doing it.

I remember though like 10 years ago working for a big company like Nokia, and a couple of Linux-enthusiasts had done just that, wiped out the Windows installation from their laptop and replaced it with Linux. Apparently the company policy allowed (and even endorsed, if you were so inclined) that. At least one of those guys was running Ubuntu on his laptop.

I was amazed back then, but nowadays when I am working for a small tech company where most of my work just needs a remote desktop connection to servers from where I do most of my real work, it doesn't really matter much whether I am running Windows or Linux on my laptop locally. Remote desktop works just fine from a Linux laptop to those Windows servers, e.g. Remmina is a good replacement for the official MS RDP client. As long as Skype, MS Teams, some kind of email client and an office suite that is compatible enough with .docx and .xlsx, I'm totally fine in Linux for my current work, even preferring it for my work.

3. If it is your personal computer, especially a laptop, it probably came with a preloaded Windows. Replacing it with Linux is extra work, so why do it if you don't have to? I presume this is why most home users use Windows by default, and trying to convince them to switch to Linux is futile, unless they come up with some reason of their own why they don't want to use Windows.

To me installing Linux to my PCs usually becomes more relevant when said PCs become so old that the Windows they came with isn't supported anymore by MS, and I don't feel like buying a Windows 10 license or whatever for it. Then again MS offered free Win10 upgrades to Win7 and 8 users, but that was anyway a break point where you might think to yourself "Since I'll be switching the OS anyway (from Windows 7 to 10), I guess this would a good time to try out Linux too...".

Or, like in my case, I just didn't want to replace my Windows 7 installation with Windows 10 (I activated the free Win10 Pro upgrade though, so that I can if I feel so), but I left the Windows 7 installed and then installed Linux on the side on a separate partition/HDD. I am running Windows 10 on my work laptop anyway, there I haven't tried to install Linux yet because I haven't yet seen any reason to do so.

4. Games, especially newest DX12 games. While Linux can be a viable gaming platform (especially if you are a Steam gamer, it seems) with great community support, it still is the fact that especially new games are first and foremost made for and supported for Windows 10. And some like Epic Games Store doesn't seem to support Linux at all.

So those were the reasons why I think most people will not and not necessarily even shouldn't try to replace their Windows 10 installation with Linux, unless they come up with a reason of their own. In the next message I mention with what points I don't agree in the article.
Post edited May 29, 2021 by timppu
Some things or claims I don't agree with in that article:

1. "Even the most widely-used distros are operated by what is essentially a group of enthusiasts operating on a shoestring budget."

Ummm, really? IBM/RedHat? Oracle Linux? Even Canonical itself? Or all the backing and development work from e.g. Google? Valve (when it comes to gaming)?

Linux (distros) is a mix of both, giant companies and small-time enthusiasts. The claim might have some point if he is specifically talking about "home use" and "desktop use", as those big companies (at least IBM and Oracle) are maybe more interested in server business, but they do offer their Linux distros also for desktop use. But it is not like IBM or Oracle seem interested in making e.g. a Linux gaming distro for home users; I guess that is what Valve is for with their SteamOS...

2. "For regular casual users, having to troubleshoot Linux would be a disaster."

Wrong. For both Windows and Linux it is pretty much the same: use Google. 99% of the time you don't have to figure out the solution yourself, but see online what other people with exactly the same problem have done before you. Of course someone have had to figure it out before you, but quite often that might be some big company employee at IBM/RedHat or some hardcore Linux expert.

The OP has a point that with Linux you have to take more attention to how old the instructions are, and if they are for a totally different distro, but as long as you are using some relatively commonly used Linux distro, it shouldn't be a big problem.

If anything, googling for a problem tends to be easier for Linux as Linux error messages tend to be more verbose than Windows' "Something bad happened, there was probably some kind of error. *sad face emoji*". Or, in Windows you are just staring at a circulating dot animation with a text "Wait..." forever, with no idea if it is really doing anything or just stuck.

Also, at least for me, following online instructions for Linux problem solving tend to be easier than for Windows:

- For Windows you quite often have to follow some long Youtube video of how to operate in the graphical user interface, or a detailed article with screenshots of which menus to select etc.

- With Linux, it is normally just copy pasting a few commands from the article to your terminal, and you are done.

That is also why I prefer explaining things in Linux more than in Windows, because I can simply tell which commands to run, while with Windows trying to explain the same over phone or email is much much harder, and it is much "easier" that I either take a TeamViewer/AnyDesk remote desktop connection to their Windows PC and fix it myself, or go to their PC locally and still do it myself.

3. The claim that it is hard to choose what Linux distro and GUI to use.

No it isn't. Just pick some commonly used one like the latest Ubuntu LTS with whatever desktop environment it comes with. If you are fine using it, fine. If not for some reason, try something else. The positive thing is that you can switch both the desktop environments and even the whole Linux distro, if you feel you want to try something else instead (of course changing a whole distro basically means reinstalling Linux, but just keep your home folder backed up and you are all set).

The reason why to some it might seem "confusing" is because long-time Linux users tend to just propose what they are familiar with, like I am using Linux Mint XFCE mostly at home. You can just pick some commonly used one. I e.g. decided to use XFCE instead of the default Cinnamon or MATE simply because I read XFCE is more lightweight, so I figured gee that sounds nice, uses less RAM I guess?

I never really understand why some are so enthusiastic about what Linux desktop environment one uses anyway. The more you learn about Linux, the more you'll be doing stuff on a text terminal anyway, and the GUI (or "desktop environment") is there mainly for you to launch some graphical applications or games from the menu or the desktop, or do some common desktop operations or configurations with graphical tools.

Does it at that point really matter how exactly your Start menu or icons look like? It is not like the different desktop environments are wildly different to use, from my experience they are usually more or less the same. IMHO there is generally less difference between Linux desktop environments than there is e.g. between Windows XP and Vista/7, or 7 and 8. Now those Windows "distros" had some major changes in their GUI, and were quite different to use.

4. "Your peripherals will not work in Linux, and your wifi might not work".

That hasn't really been my experience at all. If we talk about e.g. built in wifi adapters, at least I have much more often ended up in a situation with a fresh Windows 7 (or 10) installation where the wifi adapter hasn't worked, until I have downloaded and installed the drivers from the wifi chipset manufacturer (first trying to figure out what wifi chipset do I even have in the system). The base Windows 7 or 10 installation doesn't necessarily support them out of the box, Linux usually does. To my understanding this is because in Linux the drivers have already been baked in into the kernel, so you don't have to install them separately (unless, of course, they were not included in the kernel...).

Similarly it didn't take me much effort to get e.g. my Logitech F310 or 8Bit-Do gamepads to work in Linux.

In the old times I recall these stories of not being able to get your exotic printer-scanner or a lightpen barcode reader to work in Linux, but I feel nowadays people have less and less that kinds of peripherals anyway. At least I haven't owned a printer or scanner for like 10 years, and I hardly ever use the one at our work either. Paperless office, baby.

And barcode readers?!? Welcome to 1995, I guess.

5. "Installing Linux is hard"

Because people abhor the idea of creating a bootable USB drive? Ummm, how do you clean install Windows 10 then, if not by creating a bootable USB drive with MS Media Creation Tool, and booting your PC with it in order to install Windows 10?

After you are beyond that part of creating the bootable USB drive, as far as I can tell the Linux installation is usually easier and more straightforward. You basically just click next next next with the default options, until you are in the end. If anything, Windows installation at least used to be more complicated because you had to choose what version of Windows you are eligible for (Home, Pro, N (which at least used to be the cheapo version Microsoft has sold e.g. in Thailand, yeah I learned about that (and its restrictions) while installing Windows 8 and 10 into a Thai laptop), possibly activate it etc.

The only case where Windows installation is easier is when you don't have to do it at all, because Windows was pre-installed on your PC/laptop, which is the case for most people.

As for setting up a dual-boot, the only "hard part" in it is to set up a separate empty partition for your Linux, from Windows. Not a different task from creating a separate D: partition from your existing C: partition in Windows. Can you do that? Congrats, then you can manage to make a separate Linux partition too, making you a true Linux expert I guess.

If you already have such an empty partition or even a separate hard drive/partition for your Linux, then installing Linux beside Windows is pretty much automatic. When you install Linux, it detects the existing Windows installation, and automatically offers to install Linux beside it on the empty partition/HDD, and sets up the dual boot automatically.

What exactly is so hard about it?
Post edited May 29, 2021 by timppu
So a summary about that article:

It had a point that most PC users simply don't have any good reason to use Linux (either instead of, or in addition, to their default Windows 10), and they might not have their favorite and trusted software on Linux.

At the same time though, I feel the article really exaggerated some problems or "how hard Linux is to use". It sure is different to use when you dwell deeper from the basic desktop usage, but then so is Windows 10 if a MacOS user tries to use it, or even a Windows 7 user.

At least for me learning to use Windows 8/10 took quite some time, when coming fresh from Windows 7. It didn't help that I found most of the GUI changes, especially in Windows 8, negative compared to Windows 7 (and still do).
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Orkhepaj: No trolling pls, even if you are a Linux fanatic.
This is a serious thread, helping to decide for those who're thinking about switching to Linux.
Thank you!
No need to "switch". You can keep using both, like I do.

Similar thing like buying games from GOG does not mean you can't buy and play games also on e.g. Steam or EGS. You may choose to do so if you are so inclined, but you don't have to.
Post edited May 29, 2021 by timppu