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OldOldGamer: Yes, you are right. My memory is getting old :)

But, anyway, even if I preferred 3.0 over 3.5, TOEE is still one the best paper RPG translation and, as a consequence, one of the most balanced CRPG ever.
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dtgreene: Being a translation of a TRPG, even a well known one, does not automatically make the game balanced.

For example:
* The tabletop game isn't even balanced to begin with. From what I hear, Clerics and Druids are overpowered compared to other classes.
* Apparently, in TOEE there is a special weapon that, if certain conditions are met, will always hit. This game implements the Power Attack feat, which gives you extra damage in exchange for accuracy. Combine the two, and now you can get extra damage for free. (Not to mention there is a way to get a lot of extra attacks with this weapon.)
* Some weapons, like the Glaive, allow you to attack at a longer range. While that might not seem too gamebreaking on its own, when you factor in the Attack of Opportunity mechanic (a mechanic I dislike for other reasons), you get free attacks on any enemy that is trying to close to melee, and *that* can be game-breaking. (For fans of the tabletop game, let me mention the Spiked Chain.)
Ok, wrong word.
I'm not someone that likes balanced games. Reality is not balanced.
Glaive attacking at long range. Good! Stay away from it.

What I meant, is that TOEE have one of the best game system in a CRPG, since it is one of the best adaptation from a real RPG.
And it shows: character growth is interesting.
Many skills, that are skills. Too many RPG today call combat abilities skills. Just crap.
This from someone that really didn't like D&D. At all. But as a CRPG, it was brilliant.

Even if the game was too short and didn't explore the full potential of the system, is a pity no one else built on it.
Post edited September 14, 2018 by OldOldGamer
I think you should try this: Baldur's Gate Reloaded.
While I haven't played TOEE yet, I've always heard that it is the game with the most accurate rules interpretation of any game but has little to no story to speak of.

BG has worse/not as perfect gameplay but it has the story to make up for it.
Is that mod completed? Looks promising.

Never been a fan of Neverwinter, as I disliked system/story/graphics
Maybe you're more a fan of dungeon crawling than story-telling RPGs? Also, TOEE is 100% your own party, while BG is usually meant to be played with just one character of your own, accompanied by a party of pre-made ones.

Have you tried Icewind Dale? That seems a bit closer to TOEE than BG in those regards.
Post edited September 14, 2018 by Leroux
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OldOldGamer: What I meant, is that TOEE have one of the best game system in a CRPG, since it is one of the best adaptation from a real RPG.
First, I don't think the term "real" is appropriate here, as it implies that other types of RPG aren"t real; hence why I use the term TRPG to refer to tabletop role playing games.

Second, I don't think the d20 system is really sound to being with. One problem, for example, is that combat is accuracy-based; as your characters get better at fighting, the main thing that improves is their chance to hit (not the damage per successful hit), and armor doesn't reduce damage received (instead, it helps you dodge attacks). This means that, for example, attacks have to miss a significant portion of the time (otherwise there's no room for improvement here); having attacks missing can be quite frustrating.

Also, the d20 system scales really poorly to high levels; in fact, if we assume the use of the epic level rules (which are really just a band-aid, not a cure, for some scaling issues, but have other problems), we find that, around level 4,000, a 1% level difference can mean the difference between 5% and 95% accuracy. That's too much difference for such a small level change. Compare this to something like Disgaea, where a 1% level difference isn't going to make or break a character, even around level 4,000.

Don't forget that, while in the d20 system, physical damage doesn't increase that much, HP does, and as a result, combat becomes longer at higher levels, which slows down gameplay.
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I don't think we are understanding each other.
I'll try for last time to explain. I hope you appreciate the effort.

A game like The Witcher, to name one, doesn't use "true" RPG system; because doesn't need to.
Is a videogame. It is simply something different.
To play The Witcher on a table, you have to write it from scratch.

TOEE is a SW implementation of true (tabletop? Paper? traditional) RPG system.
As such, it provides a different kind of experience.
The above doesn't mean that TOEE is a better CRPG of The Witcher, but the underling system, potentially, allow a more in-depth approach.

The above, doesn't say anything about the quality of the mechanics.
D&D (whatever version) is 100% crap... but still, personally, having D&D 3.5 implemented, from my point of view, is still 1000 better than a system developed purely for a VideoGame.

I don't want even go in dissecting what D&D does wrong, as I will have much an easier time in enumerating what it does right; since the list is so small.
Because then I have to dissect whatever a videogames does wrong too.
Post edited September 14, 2018 by OldOldGamer
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OldOldGamer: The above, doesn't say anything about the quality of the mechanics.
D&D (whatever version) is 100% crap... but still, personally, having D&D 3.5 implemented is still 1000 better than a system developed purely for a VideoGame.
I still disagree that a CRPG D&D 3.5 is necessarily better than a system developed for a videogame. In particular, there's the accuracy issue that I mentioned, and how the game doesn't scale well; Disgaea scales better because they can use a formula for accuracy that doesn't have the same issues, but would be impractical without a computer. (In fact, Disgaea's numbers get high enough that a tabletop implementation of the game would be rather clunky unless the mechanics are complletely re-worked.)

Another issue is that some TRPGs (including AD&D where Charisma doesn't do much mechanically), there are entire gameplay elements that don't translate well to CRPGs. For example, Charisma is almost never handled well in CRPGs, in my experience. Thief skils are another example that is often not done well; in Wizardry 1, thieves are arbitrarily required for chests and are otherwise useless. In Bard's Tale 1 and 2, rogues are, indeed, useless.

I could also mention how complicated the part of the game mechanics that a player has to interact with is in D&D; in systems made for CRPGs, particularly JRPGs, much of the unnecessary complexity is gone. Final Fantasy 5, for example, has fairly simple (but not too simple) mechanics, but yet allows for tons of possibilities. (Of course, there are warts, like the damage formula for daggers not being entirely well behaved, and some attacks have really strange mechanics (Level 5 Death comes to mind), but the game does work really well.)
Taking an example as The Witcher, in all honesty, the combat i completely inaccurate.

The players use swords to easily kill even really heavily armored guys by slashing as there is no tomorrow.
Something what would bring nothing on real battlefield.
Human soldiers are way to slow with a shield, and no one use point weapons.

Charisma is a purely role-play based stat. And should be handled by the GM, in a table top game.
In a TRPG, many factors are left to the GM and players. Sometime along the road the misconception that the rules systems are gospel and have to tell even when the character needs the bathroom was born.
But is not true.

In a game like The Witcher it is scripted by the designer in whatever fashion they want: E.g. Geralt being a womaniser.
This means that Charisma is not even factor in the system.
Or like lockpicking. Or diplomacy.
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OldOldGamer: Is that mod completed? Looks promising.

Never been a fan of Neverwinter, as I disliked system/story/graphics
It's completed and apparently even includes the Tales of the Sword Coast content.
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OldOldGamer: Charisma is a purely role-play based stat.
Charisma is the main stat for a paladin's and cleric's "turn undead" ability. That's not just role-playing fluff there, that's a major character skill.
Post edited September 14, 2018 by TARFU
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OldOldGamer: Charisma is a purely role-play based stat.
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TARFU: Charisma is the main stat for a paladin's and cleric's "turn undead" ability. That's not just role-playing fluff there, that's a major character skill.
Ok, I stand corrected by the rules.
In the original Rules Cyclopedia Paladins used Wisdom. I still feel the switch to Charisma has been to give the stat some meaning.... :D
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OldOldGamer: Charisma is a purely role-play based stat.
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TARFU: Charisma is the main stat for a paladin's and cleric's "turn undead" ability. That's not just role-playing fluff there, that's a major character skill.
In 3.x (and possibly later editions), this is true (though you still have a stat that is mechanically useless for many characters, and I am not sure if that's good game design); in earlier editions (back when the game was called Advanced Dungeons & Dragons), this was not the case.
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OldOldGamer: Charisma is a purely role-play based stat.
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TARFU: Charisma is the main stat for a paladin's and cleric's "turn undead" ability. That's not just role-playing fluff there, that's a major character skill.
More importantly, it's the key attribute for most spontaneous casters' (e.g., sorcerers' and bards') spellcasting capability.
Yes, later editions tought of giving the Charisma stat some glory.
Originally, for paladins, was Wisdom.
And, mashing in a single stat, badly named, personality, charisma, attraction, sex-appeal, strength of will and God's know what else is, again, really crap design.
Just no. Just do something else. Just add "willpower".

Still, aside bonuses, how you roleplay a 19 Intelligence mage?
Simply we can't. As we are too stupid :)
Post edited September 14, 2018 by OldOldGamer