like in any shop where they may have made a mistake. Complaining helps, and it got resolved...The man had is games back, so what is the problem?

And please " It seems in your eyes Valve simply can't do wrong." - they are run by humans, humans make mistakes, things get resolved. How does this make Valve unlike any other human run enterprise?

"Incidentally, I don't think you'll find anyone defending that. Suspending an entire account is clearly wrong, and it would take a very peculiar kind of raving Steam fanboy to say otherwise. "

Bazilisek, I think here you have someone who thinks it is ok to ban you from all your games:

It is a similar offence as if a friend of mine in USA buys a DVD movie and sends it to me abroad, and I pay him for the expenses.

To you the correct retal... sentence for that offence would be that someone would come to my home take all my other DVD movies so that I can't access them either, not that the delivery of that particular DVD movie is blocked.

Valve had the option to simply block any further gifting by that person, but they decided to close his whole account instead (until he made it public).

I haven't followed that particular case at all, but if the guy was effectively working as a reseller, then you can't really argue that was just a minor violation of the TOS. But I do agree with you that his gifting privileges should have been removed first, not access to the entire account. That seems too drastic a measure.

It seems to me that paypal isoften more of a problem than Steam. I personally dislike Paypal extremely and avoid using it whenever I can.

During Chrismas I also had a payment problem thanks to paypal fucking the transaction up. (That's what you get for being to lazy to type in your CC). On a side note, I did not get my account banned and, to my greatest surprise, Steam support was actually helpful. Which personally was the biggest surprise. Well, it was an easy matter, but still, when I sent that support ticket I though "Ah well, why not write a letter to Santa while I'm on it".

Yes humans make errors. A difference however to GOG would be that with GOG it can never happen that you loose access to a downloaded game. It also depends on the system an enterprise is using to operate. Some are more error prune than others. That doesn't mean I think this happens often.

It was not one game, the other people were not his friends, they gave him money in return - take from this what you want.

"until he made it public" - or until Valve had the time to review the complaint and his case. We do not know the chain of events. Ether is just as likely (unless we have a pre-constructed notion that Valve is a den of evil)

Could they have just blocked gifting while looking into it? maybe. Does it change the outcome? no.
I don't know, shit happens. What if a new intern spills coffee over gog's backup of accounts, and somehow the new database administrator bundles things up and do not restore my account? I have not made any backups, I will then loose all my games bought on gog. The example is probably wrong, I am not technical, but I hope I am understood. Good thing I have evidence of all my transactions, so I can call in a complain if this happens. Same as with the users of Steam.

Another thing to consider is the user base and staff, more people = more chances for things going wrong. (Kind of wish the Borg will invade already and remove human error...)

Hmm... True. But it does give an interesting insight into the thought process behind the systems that Valve have in place (or indeed anyone that has a similar policy):
Step 1 - Nuke 'em.
Step 2 - *shrugs* Meh, we'll cross that bridge if anyone whines.

Now, I think everyone (no matter your opinion of Steam/Steamworks and Valve) would agree that when you are dealing with accounts with potentially hundreds of pounds worth of games tied to them, you should start with the bare minimum of sanctions unless something else comes to light.

So, if there's an issue with PayPal, you block access to the game that has the issue, not the entire account. If you suspect someone of acting as an unlicensed reseller, you block the ability to gift, not the entire account.


One last thing, now that I'm thinking about it. A question, and a genuine one at that I hasten to add.

Now (as anecdotal as I accept this is), a while ago I read a forum post from someone who claimed they were one of the 12,000 wrongful MW2 VAC-bans. Apparently, this person never got their account re-instated, and despite many attempts with support, ended up losing their Steam account and the few hundred pounds worth of games tied to it. This person then when on to say that they now had a new account with a few dozen games on it.

So, my question is this: if that happened to you, would you create another account? It's one thing to be untroubled by the possibility when you've had no issues at all. Fair enough. But when the worst case scenario does actually happen to you, I'm genuinely curious as to how many people would try their luck again?

Or, I suppose a better question now that I mull over it some more, if you were in that guy's apparent position, what would you do? Or more to the point what could realistically be done (that didn't involve a trip to certain popular but legally dodgy websites)?

Well, it's kind of hard to answer that with this disclaimer at the end. If this happened to me, through no fault of mine, I'd get pissed off at Steam and just pirate the games I have bought there and not played yet. Illegal? I suppose. Immoral? Not at all.

Oh, I agree with that last part entirely. Technically illegal, but morally I can't see many having an objection to it.

But that's the crux of my question, I suppose: does the average Joe with no real knowledge of cracks and torrents and proxies and so on have any realistic recourse in such a situation? Or would their only option be to quickly become an expert in such things?

It seems to me that this is something that will one day need to be properly addressed (assuming nothing currently exists) as more and more people go 'digital only', and less emphasis is given on actually having something physical to own (for want of a better term).

At least in this country, average Joes who are barely computer literate download movies off file sharing sites all the time (and I do mean all the time); I think you're underestimating them. Piracy wouldn't be so rampant if it were hard to do. Even setting up a torrent client is very easy these days. And if they're truly clueless, it's not very hard to find someone who can do it for them. It's not specialised knowledge any more.

Hmm... Interesting :-)

Why do we always automatically assume the worst when it comes to Steam support?

We don't know how many cases got resolved without a total account lockdown. At least in Germany we have a very strong "consumer protection group" that has already sued valve when they made reselling of HL2 impossible. They also got EA to change their Origin TOS and gave them a warning.

If it would be usual in Germany (one of Steams biggest markets) that accounts get banned left and right without reason, Valve would have another proceeding on their table.

What I find so irritating in all those Steam discussion isn't the criticism of Steam (there is a lot to critize and the real important issues aren't even touched yet, like regional restrictions) but the double standard people have in regard to Valve. Whenever GOG (or GG) fucks up, everybody (me included) always reminds people that this probably wasn't all GOGs fault and that external issues might be a problem, etc pp. But whenever Steam fucks up it's always because GAbe hates us and they are inherently evil. This disqualifies most criticism brought forward here.

Now we are discussing the discussion. Means probably there is nothing left to discuss, eh.

By the way, GOG has no region restriction and even the same price everywhere, so it is in this aspect clearly better than Steam. :)

http://www.gog.com/en/gamecard/the_witcher_2

Regardless, GOG is in most aspects better than Steam.

I partly agree, but that just goes to show how much of a difference it can make for your image if you give your customers the benefit of the doubt instead of playing it safe with DRM; your customers might return that favor when you fuck up yourself. ;)

Anyway, you're right about the support, but it doesn't necessarily disqualify other arguments. For some arguments it's really unimportant if the intent is good or "evil". Of course GOG does not sell any game they might get offered either, and Valve has all the right to reject games if they think they don't fit their criteria, it's perfectly normal and possibly even good for their customers. But it evolves into an issue nevertheless when developers become dependent of Valve's decision for the lack of alternatives. I think another reason why some people here are more critical towards Steam than GOG is that Valve has a lot more influence and power than CDProjekt.