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rtcvb32: but those two directories have extra stuff activated only because of what they are called
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JMich: May I get a source for that, since I don't recall encountering it?
I don't have a source, more a gut feeling. Based on if you check all the permissions for a particular folder, and there's no reason for it to do additional checks, you will get a 'requires admin' just because it's part of the 'program files' folder.

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JMich: May be a classid case, in which case they can be modified, assuming you do read the documentation.
What documentation?

I know there is some documentation for their Visual Studio, and their libraries, but anything OS level is basically undocumented for us. Especially if you being reading through their EULA which half of it is 1) Microsoft is not responsible and 2) don't hack or reverse engineer anything.

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JMich: Would also like a source for that, since the only connection issues I recall was a misunderstanding with the half-open connections on XP.
I looked for one briefly, let's see if i can find it... Found one
The server and workstation kernels in NT are identical, and changing two registry keys is enough to convince a workstation that it's a server. <...> Neither does the fact that NT Server costs almost three times as much as NT Workstation. In fact we're talking about little more than Windows for Workgroups on steroids.
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rtcvb32: I don't have a source, more a gut feeling. Based on if you check all the permissions for a particular folder, and there's no reason for it to do additional checks, you will get a 'requires admin' just because it's part of the 'program files' folder.
For a long time I had a %programfiles%\GOG.com folder with full permissions for my user. Never had any UAC prompt when modifying files there. Same for %programfiles%\Steam.
So the gut feeling is most likely incorrect.

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rtcvb32: What documentation?

I know there is some documentation for their Visual Studio, and their libraries, but anything OS level is basically undocumented for us. Especially if you being reading through their EULA which half of it is 1) Microsoft is not responsible and 2) don't hack or reverse engineer anything.
[url=http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms691424(v=vs.85).aspx]CLSID on MSDN[/url], and move on from there. MSDN does document most of the windows functions, though you do need to either spend a few hours there, or know what you are looking for.

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rtcvb32: I looked for one briefly, let's see if i can find it... Found one
Was mostly asking about the network part. As for changing a registry key and being identified as a server, I think it's similar to changing the 2.0lt sticker of your car to a 4.0lt one, and expecting it to be faster. Being identified as one isn't the same as being optimized for one.

And concerning the article you linked, our University did have a few Windows servers along its Unix ones, and I don't recall them crashing. Especially since 3 of the 4 administrators were Unix fanatics, so if the Windows servers crashed that often, they would have gotten rid of them quite fast.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to look for the network problems on Win2K that could be fixed with a registry tweak.
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JMich: For a long time I had a %programfiles%\GOG.com folder with full permissions for my user. Never had any UAC prompt when modifying files there. Same for %programfiles%\Steam.
So the gut feeling is most likely incorrect.
What version is your OS? I noticed this started with Windows 7, never had a problem with XP.

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JMich: Was mostly asking about the network part. As for changing a registry key and being identified as a server, I think it's similar to changing the 2.0lt sticker of your car to a 4.0lt one, and expecting it to be faster. Being identified as one isn't the same as being optimized for one.

And concerning the article you linked, our University did have a few Windows servers along its Unix ones, and I don't recall them crashing. Especially since 3 of the 4 administrators were Unix fanatics, so if the Windows servers crashed that often, they would have gotten rid of them quite fast.
I noticed early on that some of the Windows were fairly stable once you put them on.... as long as you didn't install ANYTHING else.

A lot of the crashing came from adding software to your computer rather than the bare OS by itself. I recall installing games and programs, and DLL's would get replaced. Generally i tried to go with the newer versions to keep, but that doesn't mean they were going to get called right by the OS since they were custom versions for other software. The OS would have been a lot more stable as a whole if M$ didn't decide to shove all DLL's and other software to be merged into the OS.

Same link as before

Code separation, protection and sharing flaws
The main problem with DLL support is that the OS keeps track of DLLs by name only. There is no adequate signature system to keep track of different DLL versions. In other words, Windows cannot see the difference between one WHATSIT.DLL and another DLL with the same name, although they may contain entirely different code. Once a DLL in the Windows directory has been overwritten by another one, there's no way back. Also, the order in which applications are started (and DLLs are loaded) determines which DLL will become active, and how the system will eventually crash. There is no distinction between different versions of the same DLL, or between DLLs that come with Windows and those that come with application software. An application may put its own DLLs in the same directory as the Windows DLLs during installation, and may overwrite DLLs by the same name if they exist.

What it boils down to is that the application may add portions of itself to the operating system. (This is one of the reasons why Windows needs to be rebooted after an application has been installed or changed.) That means that the installation procedure introduces third-party code (read: uncertified code) into the operating system and into other applications that load the affected DLLs. Furthermore, because there is no real distinction between system level code and user level code, the software in DLLs that has been provided by application programmers or the user may now run at system level. This corrupts the integrity of the operating system and other applications.
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rtcvb32: What version is your OS? I noticed this started with Windows 7, never had a problem with XP.
I first encountered those security options with Win2K, and also on XP, when running as a guest user instead of administrator. The UAC prompt was first introduced with Vista. It basically allowed an administrator user to do things as a normal user, unless asked. XP also has this, but requires two users, a limited one and an administrator one.


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rtcvb32: I noticed early on that some of the Windows were fairly stable once you put them on.... as long as you didn't install ANYTHING else.

A lot of the crashing came from adding software to your computer rather than the bare OS by itself. I recall installing games and programs, and DLL's would get replaced. Generally i tried to go with the newer versions to keep, but that doesn't mean they were going to get called right by the OS since they were custom versions for other software. The OS would have been a lot more stable as a whole if M$ didn't decide to shove all DLL's and other software to be merged into the OS.
Yes, Windows has (and had) the option of using its own DLLs or the program's ones. Trying to mess with them (oh, look, I already have this DLL, let's delete it) is not usually a smart move, though it can have its uses (d3draw.dll, glidefx.dll etc). Whether it's better to use an OS's libraries or the program's ones as default is up to discussion.


Yeah, I read the introduction and chapter one, then moved on to the links page. I don't think it's a "paper" I can take seriously, though I will try to finish reading it.
No links on most of its claims, presenting rumours as facts, using anonymous posts to sway opinion, inconsistency in the claims and so on.

But who knows, maybe it will get better later on.
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JMich: I first encountered those security options with Win2K, and also on XP, when running as a guest user instead of administrator. The UAC prompt was first introduced with Vista. It basically allowed an administrator user to do things as a normal user, unless asked. XP also has this, but requires two users, a limited one and an administrator one.
At least two users (superuser and non) is common for unix systems. Actually if you look there's something like 30 different built in names for various services (for floppy control, printer... FTP and email...)

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JMich: Yes, Windows has (and had) the option of using its own DLLs or the program's ones. Trying to mess with them (oh, look, I already have this DLL, let's delete it) is not usually a smart move, though it can have its uses (d3draw.dll, glidefx.dll etc). Whether it's better to use an OS's libraries or the program's ones as default is up to discussion.

I don't think it's a "paper" I can take seriously, though I will try to finish reading it.
No links on most of its claims, presenting rumours as facts, using anonymous posts to sway opinion, inconsistency in the claims and so on.

But who knows, maybe it will get better later on.
What i have read of it does seem correct, but i haven't read through the whole thing yet. And a lot of more interesting things are just going to be silently unnoticed or lost in a sea of information and you can't sort through it even with Google...

Glancing over i know there's an interesting tidbit that's missing for the moment (or i'm bad at searching and scanning it) that the NT kernel originally was created by Sun Microsystems. In that case M$ offered them some high incentives to move over from Sun to M$, and they took it (we're talking salaries in the 6 figures...), and the source code to the kernel went with them. Once they got the kernel functioning and changed it enough that they couldn't get sued for copyright infringement those programmers were kicked out, last i heard they couldn't get programming jobs again.
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JMich: I first encountered those security options with Win2K, and also on XP, when running as a guest user instead of administrator. The UAC prompt was first introduced with Vista. It basically allowed an administrator user to do things as a normal user, unless asked. XP also has this, but requires two users, a limited one and an administrator one.
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rtcvb32: At least two users (superuser and non) is common for unix systems. Actually if you look there's something like 30 different built in names for various services (for floppy control, printer... FTP and email...)
Yes. This is about your gut feeling that files accessing %windir% and %programfiles% run extra code, which they don't. Extra code is run if a file requests access to something it doesn't have access to, be it system files, memory another program is using, or hardware. And what the extra code does is basically run the "Run As" prompt, or UAC in Vista onwards.

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rtcvb32: What i have read of it does seem correct, but i haven't read through the whole thing yet. And a lot of more interesting things are just going to be silently unnoticed or lost in a sea of information and you can't sort through it even with Google...

Glancing over i know there's an interesting tidbit that's missing for the moment (or i'm bad at searching and scanning it) that the NT kernel originally was created by Sun Microsystems. In that case M$ offered them some high incentives to move over from Sun to M$, and they took it (we're talking salaries in the 6 figures...), and the source code to the kernel went with them. Once they got the kernel functioning and changed it enough that they couldn't get sued for copyright infringement those programmers were kicked out, last i heard they couldn't get programming jobs again.
Chapter one of the rant, part called NT: Not-so-new Technology

Windows NT finally appeared to be a step in the right direction. At least the NT product line (which includes Windows 2000, XP and Vista) is the better one. 'NT' stands for 'New Technology', presumably because Windows NT is one of the few keystone products in the history of Microsoft that they didn't buy outright. Instead they hired David Cutler, who had played an important role in the development of VMS at DEC (Digital Equipment Corporation). VMS was a successful and innovative industrial OS in its days, and Digital had been working on it since the 1970's. Cutler took some 20 former Digital employees with him, and he and his team began the development of NT. The project eventually involved hundreds of other coders and testers, but Cutler and his core team of VMS engineers provided most of the know-how that went into NT's kernel code.

As a result, many design principles found in the VMS kernel ended up in Windows NT. (The number and splitting of priority levels in the scheduler, the use of demand-paged virtual memory and the layered driver model are only a few examples of many, many similarities.) The first version of VMS was released in 1977. Without trivializing the efforts of Cutler and his team (they did a lot of work on the project) one has to wonder what Microsoft really means with "New Technology". To illustrate, in a little known out-of-court settlement Microsoft paid DEC $150 million in compensation for using portions of old Digital OS code in Windows NT.

Ehm... New Technology...??
DEC instead of Sun, no mention of salaries, $150 million out-of-court settlement (or was it purchasing of rights?).


Edit: Another view of the story.
In 1988, Digital executives cancelled Cutler's project and laid off many of its group members. Cutler decided to leave Digital, but before he could do so, Microsoft executives learned of the development and realized they had an ideal opportunity to hire Cutler. At the time Cutler left Digital, the release of VMS was version 5.0 (today's version is 7.1).
Post edited July 10, 2014 by JMich
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JMich: Chapter one of the rant, part called NT: Not-so-new Technology

DEC instead of Sun, no mention of salaries, $150 million out-of-court settlement (or was it purchasing of rights?).
Oh sure; I scan it for Sun Microsystems which takes me to like 1 location in the paper. Maybe Sun had a different name at the time, or it was a specific division... I'm not sure, and i'm not feeling up to sifting through everything for it.

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JMich: Edit: Another view of the story.
This looks interesting, i might have to read this when i have some time and am in a good mood...
Post edited July 10, 2014 by rtcvb32
Does the Program Files problem affect Program Files (x86) as well? o_O
That's where I've been installing my GOG games (in an effort to keep my hard drive tidy, of all futile endeavours).
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MrPointless: Does the Program Files problem affect Program Files (x86) as well? o_O
Program Files and Program Files (x86) by default don't allow non-administrators write access. On Windows Vista and later, UAC means that an administrator user usually does not have administrator rights, but can get them through the UAC prompt.
You can always modify the security of the GOG.com folder in Program Files to give your user full access, thus no longer worry about games trying to put files where they shouldn't.

If you are on XP, an administrator user always runs programs elevated, with all the cons and pros of that.