vpmichael__: I always thought CRPG meant Canadian RPG o_0 :DDDDDDDD. As Jarmo mentioned the Bethesda games are all pretty... idk... 'free' as far as character development go.

I don't know if you've played Oblivion, but the only thing you know about your character is that you're in prison, so whatever motivation you have to progress through the game, and how you progress is internal to, and guided by the player.

... but yes, now I understand what people mean when they say CRPG. "-_- ... but in my defense, most conversations about CRPGs are about games made by a certain Canadian developer.

Jarmo: Loved Witcher 1.

At W2 I'm now about escaped from the jail and so far I hate everything here.

It's been a cutscene -> chit chat with no choices to make -> a wave of enemies, clickety click sign sign clickety click -> click click keyboard swiftness challenge -> tunnel run -> cutscene - > wave of enemies -> clickety click -> wave of enemies... and so on..

There will be actual roleplaying? Not just selecting from 4 similar answers with the same outcome.
There will be freeform wandering about and exploring? Not just running along a predetermined path/tunnel killing hordes of enemies.

Tell me only the beginning is like this!? Please...
I'm almost ready to give up already.

Freewind: so how do you want to game to be?

go sightseeing in a dungeon?

Augur: CRPG actually means COMPUTER ROLE PLAYING GAME. It's a pretty clear distinction from pen and paper classical RPGs. At least that's the original meaning of the acronym.

Bar2: TW2 is far more of a role playing game than Mass Effect, in every single aspect.
People need to get their head around the idea of what role-playing actually is. A game doesn't have to let you create a new character with a blank page to be filled during the game.
Your Geralt is very much your Geralt, in my first playthrough my Geralt was a guy hellbent on neutrality (carrying over from a TW1 save with the neutral path as well) who insisted not to get involved in politics and the only reason he was even going through it all is to find Triss.
Second Geralt was very different. This is what role playing is actually all about.

I'd also say decisions in TW2 have far bigger impact than in ME\ME2. Mass Effect throws some pretty big decisions at you but they're only big as far as the game world is concerned, the game itself doesn't change much if at all according to them, whereas in TW2 the story develops in a very different way and your decisions also affect the content you have access to.

The 'real' game starts at Flotsam indeed. Acts 1 and 2 are fantastic, it's a damn shame Act 3 feels so damn rushed.

227: No hate. Not everyone will like the game, especially those who absolutely loved the first. I just have a problem when the rhetoric becomes so absolute that it dissuades people who would otherwise enjoy it from even trying it. That's where you start to see the hate :)

Ebon-Hawk: This gets bit confusing if you ask me...

Jarmo: Pretty much agree with everything here.
But in defense of roll-playing, with a desirable system the player makes decisions and the characters (not players) skill determines the outcome. Eg. I decide to hit an orc, it's customary to roll the dice, not decide the outcome by my ability to make 10 push-ups in a minute. Or as another example, Geralt is supposedly a pretty good fighter, but he's still all blue and purple after a tussle with a jailor because I just cant get hang of the WASD timing thing.

Of course this falls apart when I still accept strategy challenges which cause problems for stupid players, despite them playing very clever characters. But RPG's being a spin-off of strategy games, this is more acceptable to me.

But it all depends on what direction you approach the game from. True replication of tabletop experience and it's inherent freedom being impossible (eg. now that I got off the dungeon, screw this and this whole country, I'm outta here, maybe go to belgium or whatever), CRPGs are something else. Action games with RPG elements, RPG's with action elements, Strategy games with RPG fluff, whatever.

I prefer more story, less tactics and even less action-elements, but that's just my preference. NWN and KotOR were pretty much spot-on for me, but might have felt a bit boring for some preferring to actually do something instead of watching their character fight.

vpmichael__: What is "Pen and Paper?" Did that come out before Playstation?

Ebon-Hawk: This gets bit confusing if you ask me...
CRPG actually stands for Canadian Rangers, though I am sure you will agree that there are many uses for the acronym.

That being said, the most important point I believe is what exactly constitutes as RPG these days. Some people say that as long as you get to design and level a character, it constitutes as an RPG. With respect, you can now do that to your football players in FIFA games, does it make FIFA an RPG?

For me (and consider this my own personal opinion) a RPG means role playing game in which by definition of a name you play a role. Now in some games the specifics of that role are imposed on you (you are an alliance commander, you are a child of Baal, you are a Jedi Knight with amnesia, you are a Witcher with an amnesia and colourful history and so forth). For others (not poining at anyone in particular) RPG stands for roll playing game, the higher the damage they can roll and the better loot they can get the more "best game ever" the game they are playing just became.

At this point one should examine the implications of above.
Let's look at our alliance commander and let's call him Shepard (for the sake of this argument).

Shepard must have passed through a number of physical and mental exams/checks, he (she) has an exemplary record (at least in the sections important to those overseeing the officer) and is fit for command. That imposes certain requirements upon how the said character should be role played after all he (she) does not and did not exist and evolve in a vacuum. Behaving in renegade way, being rude and dismissive to your superiors or officers serving under you, executing people... in military terms this is called a conduct of unbecoming an officer and is a subject to court martial, which as I noted before said Shepard would have been screened for over the years of service.

In the above example your role playing options just got very limited... (unless the designer considers the military code of conduct in a future, enlighten society as a fluff). Not to mention that breaking away from some sort of established environment for the sake of some sort of artificially measured duality in the game is a very, very bad role playing game design (now do remember the part about this being my opinion).

On the other hand you have [Insert Name] character who is traveling through the Spine of the World in some Forgotten Realm(s). Your development of the said character here is not limited by an imposed position in a social or ethical order governing the world because you carry none of the background story with you. This allows for a greater degree of freedom but is not ideal for video games entertainment, after all it would be impossible for a designers to create an involving story for a hero builded around... let's see a homosexual, one handed, colour blind gnome (just an example)... without actually knowing that the player is planning to create a said character.

I do not believe that there has to be some sort of one is better than other situation here. I personally know that certain stories are more fit for certain environments and characters (as well as associated non player characters cast) while others are not.

So, directing this part towards OP, I cannot tell you what is a role playing and what is not because given the complexity of the subject, this is something you have to decide for yourself. In my opinion, Witcher 2 has a vast amount of role playing.

Role playing Gerald's escape from the dungeon by acting within a certain code of conduct such us not killing guards because they are just doing their job, saving a woman in distress and killing her would be torturer, ensuring survival of what is important to you, not getting involved in politics... all of this I consider an awesome example of role playing and Witcher 2 does certainly live up to my expectations...
If it does not live up to yours, then all I can suggest for you is to look for a different offering, after all one game cannot be everything for everyone.

ArnoldJ.Rimmer: A few people mentioned the multiple decisons you can make.

this is why Act 3 starts and ends in the same time it takes to make a cup o tea,too many decisions.

add up the gameplay taken by decision variants and this could have been a much longer game.