What do you mean I don't answer, just because I don't explain to you basic concepts like some sort of encyclopedia? Or do you want to trap me again if I get some minor detail wrong? I have said numerous times that an area scaling system like in Fallout 1&2, MM 6-8 is what I recommend.

So Area Scaling means that New Haven (or what the name of the city was) has enemy levels of 1-10, while the desert has level 40-50 and the mountains has levels 20-30? Like the mountains having levels 10-15, caverns having levels 10-15, dungeon having level 10-15, while starting town has levels 1-5, ending temple has levels 17-20, swamp has levels 15-17, but you can't visit every area until you have met some requirements?

Not necessarily levels, but just better monsters, like Titans, Hydras and such, but thats what it means, except that you you can, or should be able to go where you want to without requirements.

(And if you can't, like the Nighon tunnels in MM7 or the black mountain mines in Arcanum, I will criticize such an artificial wall very much. As I have since MM7 came out, which is why I like MM6 better.)

So Neverwinter Nights is using Area Scaling, with the addition of artificial walls? Or is it only using artificial walls and hand placed enemies, which are independant of areas?

As far as I recall, there are 2 encounter types. Level based encounters (aka level scaling) and area based encounters (aka area scaling). You can of course have some special encounters added to the mix (Dark Wanderer at the beginning of Chapter 3 in Diablo 2), but those are the encounter types. Is there a 4th encounter type I am unaware of?

No, there are no level walls or area scaling in Neverwinter Nights, why would you ask me this? You were the one who brought up the example, so I would have expected you to know that.

I mentioned Artificial walls, not level walls. The check being in which chapter you are, that was the check allowing you access to a specific area. And since the level of enemies you encounter are based on which area you visit, that is area scaling.
So far, you say that even though the enemies depend on the area, it's not area scaling, and the fact that you can't visit any area that you wish isn't an artificial wall. So what kind of encounters does Neverwinter Nights has (other than boring, non-challenging ones)? Area based or Level based? Or a different kind of encounter?

JMich, I think the problem is that in terms of content scaling, you're thinking of games like modern TES series with a continuous world, so in a game like that but without scaling in order to go to a high-level area right from the beginning, you would need to travel through other high-lvl areas with monsters possibly attacking you and following you as you passed through/

Have a look at this little thing I whipped up in Paint, imagine this as a travel map like Fallout, the boxes as towns, and the area outside that as just large expanses of desert/wilderness.

In a game like that, travelling from the lvl 1-3 area straight to the lvl 15-17 right at the beginning of the game is possible, it might be crazy dangerous, but there's not much blocking (except say for random encounters on travel map, which could be easily avoided) and you don't have to run through a continuous world.

Man you are a bit confused. First of all thats not even true, even those enemies scale to your level within the ranges you listed in Neverwinter nights, they realised that mistake and removed that level scaling from the MUCH better additional campaigns and part 2.
And second, even if it were true, or as in the addons, thats not scaling at all. You have 3 areas in each chapter and they have the same level range. You can't access higher chapters. What is your point? Why are we talking about this game so much?

I've no problem with places where I will encounter higher level enemies. Even if that means going through high level enemies to reach higher level ones, and I risk dying doing that.
I have a problem if to go from lvl 10-15 to level 15-16 I have to go through 7-8, 4-6, 1-3. In that case I encounter enemies way below my level, which I find boring and grindy.

I never said Fallout had a bad system. I never said Oblivion had a good system. I said that level scaling isn't bad by itself, nor is area scaling. Since jamotide uses Oblivion as the penultimate example of a level scaling, I brought NWN as an example of a badly implemented area based level system.



You did see the levels list in post 233, right? That is what happens if you do everything. If you do the minimum, you reach each chapter at the minimum level for that chapter. Enemy levels will be the same, no matter what level you are. So it's not level scaling.

My point is that by doing every quest the game gives me, I end up much higher level than the enemies I'm facing. So by not adjusting the enemy levels to mine (no level scaling), I don't have any challenging encounters, and the game becomes boring. As to why we are talking about this game so much, because it's an example of why a game that doesn't use level scaling is bad. Same as Oblivion is an example of a game that uses level scaling in a bad way.

Oh so that annoys me ,too! But then why do you want level scaling, it would only make those annoying encounters mmore bothersome! At least now you can either just disregard them like in MM6-8, dispatch of them very quickly or avoid them altogether like in Fallout with outdoorsman.
Yet in a level scaling world you have to bother with the pointless encounters in a very tedious and annoying way.

Its not area scaling either. So you brought this up as a bad example for are scaling huh? Pretty bad idea, next time pick a game that actually has such a system.

In a proper level scaling system, there are no level 1-5 areas. All areas are at least your level, so the path I mentioned above wouldn't be "10-15"->"7-8"->"4-6"->"1-3"->"15-17" but it would be "15"->"15". More or less what Crossmando was saying, that to go to the high level area, you pass through a high level area.

Would Area Based cover it then? Or hand-placed enemies? In both those cases as well, you do end up fighting enemies that provide no challenge. If the enemy levels were adjusted to your level at the start of the chapter, the fights would be more interesting instead of just another grind. So NWN would be better if it had level scaling. If you only did the minimum, you would have what you currently have. If you did everything, you would have a bit more challenge.

That of course assumes you like a challenge and don't like to steamroll your opponents, even though steamrolling does have its uses.

To come back from my earlier stance (against level scaling), maybe I'll find it ok if it is somehow made believable and coherent. For instance, the weaklings that would normally try picking a fight with you if you were level 1, will just run away scared (or at least not bother you) if you are level 20. And at the same time, maybe the big brutes which earlier didn't even pay any attention to you, feel now obliged to fight you before you become too powerful. Or something.

But at the same time, I would prefer that the early weaklings were not simply replaced by the big brutes, but different NPCs/monsters would react differently to your level. So the world/NPCs around you wouldn't magically change or be replaced according to your level, but the world around you would still react differently to you (and your levels).

So there would still be the possibility to fight NPCs which are not on your level, like catching the fleeing weaklings at level 20, or actively annoying and picking a fight with the big brutes at level 1.

So I can't really say I am rigidly against some sort level scaling in RPGs.

Well it is in the original campaign, because the enemies scale to your level within that range. And since you listed the xp possibilities we can see that you will always encounter enemies your level in the beginning of a new area. But since scaling sucks, they removed that in the much improved addons and part 2.

No, it is just designing enemies in a linear game. It has nothing to do with area scaling. If its too easy later, they should have just put stronger enemies in there.

You are mixing stuff up. The path I'm saying above has nothing to do with Neverwinter Nights, it was a reply to Crossmando about how Fallout's map is, and what a game has to avoid. Having me backtrack through lower level areas, while the enemies still fight me is something to be avoided.
As for NWN, you still haven't read post 233. While the first 2 chapters are semi-ok (you start Chapter 1 as level 1, with the enemies being levels 1-5, you start Chapter 2 as level 6.5 with the enemies being 5-10), from the beginning of Chapter 3 you start being overpowered (you start Chapter 3 as level 13 with enemies being 10-15, so the equivalent of having already finished one of the 3 areas). By the time you reach Chapter 4, you are level 17, with the enemies being 15-17, and 17 are the end area enemies, that by the time you reach them you are already level 19 or 20. And for Chapter 5, you begin it as powerful as you should be at the end.
So no, the enemies don't scale to your level. And yes, I am repeating my self.

It's too easy if you do all 3 areas. If you only do the 2 areas that are needed to continue, you begin each chapter at a much lower level, so if you do use stronger enemies, you won't be able to proceed.
If you only do the minimum, you begin Chapter 2 as level 5, Chapter 3 as level 10, Chapter 4 as level 15 and Chapter 5 as level 17. If the enemies are placed for a level 6.5, 13, 17 and 20 respectively, you will be severely underleveled, so you will have a much harder time, if you even manage to make it. Would you then scale the enemies down if the player is underleveled?


P.S. How exactly does the enemy level scale with areas? Because so far when I say area scaling I mean that specific areas have enemies of a set level, and said level won't go up or down. That is why I use area scaling, area based and hand placed for the same thing, because they are the same thing.

Agreed. Outdoorsman, dude.

And you still havent read my numerous posts where I tried to explain to you that even within that range the enemies scale to your level. So when you enter 10-15 at 13 you will fight level 13-15 enemies till you level above 15. This is only in the first campaign, in the addons they removed this idiotic scaling. (probably the 4th time I write this, will it sink it now?)

No free rides.