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General discussion (archive)Compulsive min-maxing in RPG games(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted May 30, 2011
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GameRager: *Cough* Arcanum *Cough cough*
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mystral: Also Fallout 1&2.
Ah, those games....if any game was fun to go full retard in it was those two. Well, except when you wanted to complete a quest/etc that needed high intelligence, that is.
(curing the drug addiction in the one town....anyone?)
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GameRager: *Cough* Arcanum *Cough cough*
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FlintlockJazz: I really need to get round to playing that game one of these days, got it bought and downloaded from GOG but can never get started because I can't make up my mind as to whether to go science or magic, and wind up putting it off until later since I want to do both. :D
Porblem is that as you develop you character scientifically your magic skills start to wane, and vice versa....also I believe some missions need you to be high in one or the other.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by GameRager
Posted May 30, 2011
GameRager: I have no qualm with playing the former way btw, but the latter does seem a bit odd to play as such....i.e I always feel the need to give my char. some points in each stat to be a bit more balanced/able to play as I wish(within reason) during games.


Yes I think we play much the same way ie. we try not to totally gimp our char by having a warrior with low str. but we also want a "balanced" char that doesn't completely suck at one thing. It can be hard to do in some RPGs though.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by jepsen1977
Posted May 30, 2011
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orcishgamer: Ah thank you both, this also bugs me, systems where I'm not truly giving much up for having dump stats to an absurd level (like Cha 1). It would be great if doing that only got you less interesting or fun options for completing the game (or maybe even prevented you from doing so, if you need companions to win and you can't keep a buddy around because you urinate in his breakfast every morning, you don't get to win). Of course making a game unwinnable will reduce its appeal so I'm not holding my breath. Perhaps there's another way to handle it without explicitly forbidding it.
I think the 'dump stat' is the source of these problems of min/maxing. By making all characteristics important then it makes reducing one would mean choosing to face different challenges than reducing another and lead to difference in gameplay. DAO pretty much made the magic stat irrelevant for warrior and rogue classes, strength irrelevant for mages etc. If having a high magic stat meant that the warrior could unlock abilities that let him set his sword on fire for instance then it would have made it more of a choice as to what kind of warrior you wanted to play.
Posted May 30, 2011
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jepsen1977: GameRager: I have no qualm with playing the former way btw, but the latter does seem a bit odd to play as such....i.e I always feel the need to give my char. some points in each stat to be a bit more balanced/able to play as I wish(within reason) during games.


Yes I think we play much the same way ie. we try not to totally gimp our char by having a warrior with low str. but we also want a "balanced" char that doesn't completely suck at one thing. It can be hard to do in some RPGs though.
I try to make the main stats the highest(obv) and keep a good number of the others above baseline/avg, and maybe only put one really low. With my mage that was health, sadly, in one game I played....he was still a decent lockpicker though. ;)
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jepsen1977: Yes I almost exclusively play western RPGs and don't like JRPGs at all - though to be fair I'm a strict PC gamer so that limits my chance to try JRPGs. But with my focus on story and immersion that excludes many JRPGs. To me many ARPGs like Diablo, TQ and Torchlight are more like action-games and less like RPGs. To me there really is no big difference between Diablo and older games like Ikari Warriors and Commando.
This doesn't mean that I hate ARPGs because I have played most of them but I do agree that I usually do one playthrough and that's it and I never beat them on all difficulties like some do.
It's not that ARPGs are "bad" or not "real" RPGs but my problem with min/maxing is that it can force the devs to taylor their game in a way so that it can't be broken by min/maxing. It would be better if the devs could just spend their time working on a better story with more options to roleplay your character the way you want.
Actually, there are several jRPGs that have PC versions, and some are now being ported by their owners to PC. And many have a kick ass storyline.
Post edited May 30, 2011 by GameRager
Posted May 30, 2011
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GameRager: *Cough* Arcanum *Cough cough*
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FlintlockJazz: I really need to get round to playing that game one of these days, got it bought and downloaded from GOG but can never get started because I can't make up my mind as to whether to go science or magic, and wind up putting it off until later since I want to do both. :D
You don't need to play one or the other. Your PC can also stay neutral and either play a combat specialist or a thief.

The most fun I had in any playthrough was with a diplomat character who recruited NPCs to do the fighting, and resolved most quest peacefully by convincing people to give him what he wanted.
For that you only need very high charisma, max persuasion, high intelligence and possibly above average beauty. That should even leave you with some points to experiment with other stuff.
Posted May 30, 2011
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FlintlockJazz: I think the 'dump stat' is the source of these problems of min/maxing.
Of course it is. Dump-stats have always existed in any PnP RPG. D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Vampire: The Masquerade. As long as PnP RPG's have existed there have been dump-stats. Prestige classes or unique classes in other systems were an attempt to get gamers away from using dump-stats but it never really worked.

Hell I remember making a blind albino paraplegic Otaku in Shadowrun simply because his Matrix stats went through the roof.
Posted May 30, 2011
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FlintlockJazz: I think the 'dump stat' is the source of these problems of min/maxing.
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Delixe: Of course it is. Dump-stats have always existed in any PnP RPG. D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Vampire: The Masquerade. As long as PnP RPG's have existed there have been dump-stats. Prestige classes or unique classes in other systems were an attempt to get gamers away from using dump-stats but it never really worked.

Hell I remember making a blind albino paraplegic Otaku in Shadowrun simply because his Matrix stats went through the roof.
There are dump stats in quite a few games. :-/ that just have utterly no use.
Posted May 30, 2011
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Landeril: There are dump stats in quite a few games. :-/ that just have utterly no use.
The GM asked me why I would want to roleplay a blind albino paraplegic Otaku. I said "Mate +2 Willpower and I now have 8 points to spend on Matrix perks". Yeah sometimes you hate being a Munchkin.
Posted May 30, 2011
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Delixe: Of course it is. Dump-stats have always existed in any PnP RPG. D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Vampire: The Masquerade. As long as PnP RPG's have existed there have been dump-stats. Prestige classes or unique classes in other systems were an attempt to get gamers away from using dump-stats but it never really worked.

Hell I remember making a blind albino paraplegic Otaku in Shadowrun simply because his Matrix stats went through the roof.
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Landeril: There are dump stats in quite a few games. :-/ that just have utterly no use.
Name some that you found most interesting(in the fact they were dump stats for that particular game/etc) for some reason....;)
Posted May 30, 2011
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Landeril: There are dump stats in quite a few games. :-/ that just have utterly no use.
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GameRager: Name some that you found most interesting(in the fact they were dump stats for that particular game/etc) for some reason....;)
Elder Scrolls have both dump stats and skills. <_< Alchemy was fun. :D

VTM was another with pretty crappy dump stats.

and I get the thing about playing something purely for the points. <_<

I play a Tremere 3rd Gen for the Blood Magic in VTM
Posted May 30, 2011
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FlintlockJazz: I think the 'dump stat' is the source of these problems of min/maxing.
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Delixe: Of course it is. Dump-stats have always existed in any PnP RPG. D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Vampire: The Masquerade. As long as PnP RPG's have existed there have been dump-stats. Prestige classes or unique classes in other systems were an attempt to get gamers away from using dump-stats but it never really worked.

Hell I remember making a blind albino paraplegic Otaku in Shadowrun simply because his Matrix stats went through the roof.
They'll always exist but if you make all stats important in some way, then at least a min-maxer will miss on some stuff. That, in turn, will make min-maxing less attractive.

A very stupid or very ugly fighter in Arcanum, for instance, does miss out on a lot of stuff.
The key, in computer games anyway, is to do base stats checks as well as skill checks.

The problem is that instead of punishing both min maxed and average characters in different ways (min-maxed miss out on stuff, average are less good in combat), most game developers now favor min maxers (like for instance removing base stat checks from the new fallout games, allowing Charisma to be a dump stat with no consequence).
Posted May 30, 2011
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GameRager: Name some that you found most interesting(in the fact they were dump stats for that particular game/etc) for some reason....;)
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Landeril: Elder Scrolls have both dump stats and skills. <_< Alchemy was fun. :D

VTM was another with pretty crappy dump stats.

and I get the thing about playing something purely for the points. <_<

I play a Tremere 3rd Gen for the Blood Magic in VTM
Alchemy was fun yeah collecting plants, carrying the gear around or going back to where you stored it, etc...still making potions and naming them weird names was fun.
Posted May 30, 2011
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GameRager: *Cough* Arcanum *Cough cough*
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FlintlockJazz: I really need to get round to playing that game one of these days, got it bought and downloaded from GOG but can never get started because I can't make up my mind as to whether to go science or magic, and wind up putting it off until later since I want to do both. :D
Then choose the third way - Swordsman with great talking :) Max this is quite easy, so you will still have few point's for tech/magick.

How i miss my strong but inteligent ogre, though he talk like an idiot - because the background trait.
Posted May 30, 2011
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Delixe: Of course it is. Dump-stats have always existed in any PnP RPG. D&D, Shadowrun, Earthdawn, Vampire: The Masquerade. As long as PnP RPG's have existed there have been dump-stats. Prestige classes or unique classes in other systems were an attempt to get gamers away from using dump-stats but it never really worked.

Hell I remember making a blind albino paraplegic Otaku in Shadowrun simply because his Matrix stats went through the roof.
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mystral: They'll always exist but if you make all stats important in some way, then at least a min-maxer will miss on some stuff. That, in turn, will make min-maxing less attractive.

A very stupid or very ugly fighter in Arcanum, for instance, does miss out on a lot of stuff.
The key, in computer games anyway, is to do base stats checks as well as skill checks.
Give the devs the money and time needed to make such changes to make every stat count as much as possible or in differing ways depending on how you put points into them and you'll be all set.
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FlintlockJazz: I really need to get round to playing that game one of these days, got it bought and downloaded from GOG but can never get started because I can't make up my mind as to whether to go science or magic, and wind up putting it off until later since I want to do both. :D
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Bodkin: Then choose the third way - Swordsman with great talking :) Max this is quite easy, so you will still have few point's for tech/magick.

How i miss my strong but inteligent ogre, though he talk like an idiot - because the background trait.
Or gunfighter.....well not really.....but maybe....no no maybe gunfighter sucks....but still..
Post edited May 30, 2011 by GameRager
Posted May 30, 2011
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jepsen1977: GameRager: I have no qualm with playing the former way btw, but the latter does seem a bit odd to play as such....i.e I always feel the need to give my char. some points in each stat to be a bit more balanced/able to play as I wish(within reason) during games.


Yes I think we play much the same way ie. we try not to totally gimp our char by having a warrior with low str. but we also want a "balanced" char that doesn't completely suck at one thing. It can be hard to do in some RPGs though.
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GameRager: I try to make the main stats the highest(obv) and keep a good number of the others above baseline/avg, and maybe only put one really low. With my mage that was health, sadly, in one game I played....he was still a decent lockpicker though. ;)
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jepsen1977: Yes I almost exclusively play western RPGs and don't like JRPGs at all - though to be fair I'm a strict PC gamer so that limits my chance to try JRPGs. But with my focus on story and immersion that excludes many JRPGs. To me many ARPGs like Diablo, TQ and Torchlight are more like action-games and less like RPGs. To me there really is no big difference between Diablo and older games like Ikari Warriors and Commando.
This doesn't mean that I hate ARPGs because I have played most of them but I do agree that I usually do one playthrough and that's it and I never beat them on all difficulties like some do.
It's not that ARPGs are "bad" or not "real" RPGs but my problem with min/maxing is that it can force the devs to taylor their game in a way so that it can't be broken by min/maxing. It would be better if the devs could just spend their time working on a better story with more options to roleplay your character the way you want.
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GameRager: Actually, there are several jRPGs that have PC versions, and some are now being ported by their owners to PC. And many have a kick ass storyline.
There are some RPGs that force you down a specific path like Dragon Age 2 where my rogue is forced to put all points into cunning in order to open locks even if dexterity and wisdom are much more "logical". So this isn't an either/or but more like both. So I try to play a role but I do it within the context of the system.
Some people actually enjoy to make a "bad" character just to see if they can finish the game that way like the famous "stupid character" in Fallout 1-2. A friend of mine finished BG1 with a fighter with fairly low stats because he didn't know he could change them/reroll and char creation.
The only JRPG I own is Septerra Core but haven't played it yet. But if you know of other JRPGs for PC then please let me know. My dislike for JRPGs is more out of ignorance on my part and I'm always looking for a good RPG.
Pages:
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussion (archive)Compulsive min-maxing in RPG games(191 posts)(191 posts)
(191 posts)