GameRager: I also liked(offtopic but btw) the bestiary and hunter's guild system, and the whole storyline, even if used to death before. I dunno....it just seemed awesome to me. Plus some of the enemies are kinda cute to look at.

Landeril: I did like the hunters guild <_<

GameRager: 1. Just like in PnP it's mostly just fantasy in your head?

2. Actually some of those are standard RPG elements(at least in PC games)...not just my definition of them,

3. You can still come off as touting opinions as factr by the way you speak, and some will pick up on this.

mystral: On the other hand, I fail to see how KotOR is one considering that it shares the same real-time with pause tactical combat as Baldur's Gate. The only differences is the camera angle, the fact that you have half as many party members, less variety of tactics and the combat is much easier. That's not enough to put the game in a different genre imo.

Mr.Spatula: The problem is not min/maxing, but game systems who don't punish you for having 1 CHA, (or int, or whatever) or even seem to have it built as a purpose dump stat that offers little to no advantage. If you could get by in the world perfectly well and without any disadvantage while being ugly as sin, never washing, and cursing out every single person you meet all the time about everything (1 cha) would it make any sense for your hypothetical fighter (training to be the best there ever was) to learn manners, wash, groom himself, and not be purposely rude to everyone? No, I say having 1 cha in a game system like that *is* roleplaying.

Mr.Spatula: The problem is not min/maxing, but game systems who don't punish you for having 1 CHA, (or int, or whatever) or even seem to have it built as a purpose dump stat that offers little to no advantage. If you could get by in the world perfectly well and without any disadvantage while being ugly as sin, never washing, and cursing out every single person you meet all the time about everything (1 cha) would it make any sense for your hypothetical fighter (training to be the best there ever was) to learn manners, wash, groom himself, and not be purposely rude to everyone? No, I say having 1 cha in a game system like that *is* roleplaying.

mystral: 1. There is a huge difference between "mostly" and "all" at least to me.

2. Correction: you think these are "standard RPG elements", I don't.

3. So how is the way you speak any different? Show me examples of how you make your opinions seem like opinions and I make mine seem like facts. The more specific the better.

FlintlockJazz: This. I agree with this on so many levels, I just couldn't think straight enough to say it because I have been drinking vodka. :D There should be drawbacks for min/maxing your character like that, no stat should be a dump stat, they should all be important regardless your class. Intelligence should be important even for a fighter even if it's simple as simple as being able to string a sentance together and not to be conned by every last man on the street. I'd love it if there was a game released that made many of the conversations ineligible to the player because their character lacked the intelligence to understand what was being said. :D

jepsen1977: I personally hate min/maxing and dislike games that force me to do it. I play RPGs for the story, characters, immersion and the option to define my role. Traditionally CRPGs came from PnP DnD (Gygax) and most often you used a 20 sided dice to decide say the strength of your warrior and most DMs would only allow you 1 roll so if you got a str. of 11 then that would be something you had to work into your role as a warrior (maybe he was sick as a child and couldn't work out as much). In other words your char had to make sense from an immersion perspective and he should be able to fit in with the world and a good DM would make sure that the module/adventure was not too hard for a warrior with a str. of 11.
In CRPGs there is no such limitation and you could make a warrior with maxed out str. and then 1 in int, dex, wis and char. But how would you make a "story" about your char with those stats? You can't - and so when you min/max you play the system and NOT the story, characters, immersion etc. Some RPGs like Temple of Elemental Evil and Drakensang are so hard that you are forced to play this way (and even the Infinity Engine games can be brutally hard). In other words you can't survive unless you destroy your own immersion/enjoyment of the game and that's bad I think.
Now I'm not saying that you can't try to make you guy effective by having high str/con as a fighter and then lower int, dex etc. but there is a HUGE difference between this and then dump stats of 1.
For me a true RPG must give you the chance to make meaningful decisions for your char by creating immersion in a universe with its own internal logic ie. your char must be "believable" within said universe. That is why I hate min/maxing because the internal logic is dead and hence there can be no immersion.