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mqstout: Eh, he got it all wrong when he called SafeDisk/SecuRom/Starforce DRM. Later versions of SecuROM (that use the Internet to revoke licenses) are DRM, but the earlier ones he mentioned at that time are not.
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javier0889: I think his concept of DRM was "a thing that makes it hard to copy a certain piece of software".
Yeah, he is simply using DRM to mean all technical measures which are trying to restrict or prevent unauthorized and illegitimate use of the product after purchase. In that case I agree it to mean also CD copy protections, manual keyword checks, Lenslok, physical dongles etc. etc. etc., as well as "online authentication DRM" where you have to validate the product via internet before you can use it. They all have basically the same purpose: to allow only authorized users to use the product.

Some others apparently want to restrict DRM to mean only the "online authentication DRM" where the IP rights holder can retroactively revoke your access to the product afterwards.

I'm personally fine with either definition, I'd just hope that people could agree which is the "correct" one. :) And if it is the latter (only online authentication DRM is DRM), then come up with another umbrella term that includes all technical measures to restrict the unauthorized usage of a product (ie. also copy protections etc.).

For instance, I don't quite agree calling console games "DRM-free" even though they might not require online validation, but have heavy walled-garden copy protection measures restricting the usage. Same goes for older PC CD games which want to install Starforce crap into the computer. Wheeeee, DRM-free with Starforce! :)
Post edited July 06, 2014 by timppu
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timppu: Yeah, he is simply using DRM to mean all technical measures which are trying to restrict or prevent unauthorized and illegitimate use of the product after purchase. In that case I agree it to mean also CD copy protections, manual keyword checks, Lenslok, physical dongles etc. etc. etc.
Maybe i should make a game heavy in DRM... specifically it has two key things to utterly annoy you :P

1) You can only play with a gamepad... (this leads to #2)
2) You have to hold down on the shift key constantly, and letting up will cause the game to crash or die out. (It will also change every other minute to the other shift key, and after a 5 second warning period if the wrong key is still being pressed it kicks you off).

These are about non-intrusive as dongles and other forms of DRM, but it might get people to notice it...
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rtcvb32: Maybe i should make a game heavy in DRM... specifically it has two key things to utterly annoy you :P

1) You can only play with a gamepad... (this leads to #2)
2) You have to hold down on the shift key constantly, and letting up will cause the game to crash or die out. (It will also change every other minute to the other shift key, and after a 5 second warning period if the wrong key is still being pressed it kicks you off).

These are about non-intrusive as dongles and other forms of DRM, but it might get people to notice it...
Joking aside, I fail to see that as DRM, as it apparently wouldn't try to restrict the unauthorized usage of the product at all. It would just make the usage of it a true pain in the ass, regardless if you are using the original, or an unauthorized copy.

Pain in the ass, yes. DRM, no.
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timppu: Joking aside, I fail to see that as DRM, as it apparently wouldn't try to restrict the unauthorized usage of the product at all. It would just make the usage of it a true pain in the ass, regardless if you are using the original, or an unauthorized copy.

Pain in the ass, yes. DRM, no.
If you go with the middle letter Restriction, then it would restrict you from having fun. Mind you it would only kick in when it thinks you aren't playing a legit copy. The larger intent of DRM usually is to annoy you enough that it's easier to pay with cash and get a legit copy than to try and hack it. Some succeed.. Some people refuse to buy anything from that company and will only pirate/hack software from that point.

I really wonder if DRM would go away if copyright length would drop down to something like 5 years (after 5 years books aren't in print, games aren't that high on the market usually, shows may get reruns but otherwise move to other seasons, etc). If at that point DRM had to be removed by the companies by law and the games and media go to public domain (and maybe by donation based rather than buying) we might see something quite different.

But that's wishful thinking of a rather poor person...
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rtcvb32: If you go with the middle letter Restriction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_rights_management

R = Rights, not Restriction.

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rtcvb32: Mind you it would only kick in when it thinks you aren't playing a legit copy.
Ok then, that tidbit was missing at first. I thought you to mean all versions (legit and unauthorized copies) of the game would have that same annoyance.

I recall some games have used such annoyances as part of their copy protection. Off the top of my head:

- Was it the original retail Operation Flashpoint, if it thought you are using a copy of the game, it would make your gun increasingly inaccurate over time?

- Some game (Settlers?) made you produce only pigs instead of weapons, ie. it became impossible to play.

- Some Batman game (Arkham Asylum or City, even?) made your gliding cape or something non-functional, ie. you couldn't glide in the air properly anymore.

- Some SNES game where the ending battle became impossible if it detected the game not being original.

I'm sure there is some Youtube video or article where those are listed, I recall reading it in some "the funniest copy protections of all time" article, link probably from GOG forums. I agree they are kinda funny if the pirate kids complain online how their copy of the game doesn't work properly (not knowing that it reveals them as pirates), but on the other hand I recall some of those systems might have been spotty, ie. even authorized users might had sometime faced the same issues.
Post edited July 06, 2014 by timppu
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javier0889: You'll probably find this video interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjEbpMgiL7U
Also, the whole channel is quite good.
LGR, hell yeah. It's not "quite good", it's awesome! He also did a video on copy protection in arcade cabinets, btw.
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timppu: snip
Serious Sam 3 spawned an invulnerable giant red scorpion that would constantly chase you down if you had a non-legit copy.

There have also been reports of false positives.
Post edited July 06, 2014 by Grargar
Control. Pretty much anything that takes control away from the customer, I would consider as DRM.
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rtcvb32: I really wonder if DRM would go away if copyright length would drop down to something like 5 years (after 5 years books aren't in print, games aren't that high on the market usually, shows may get reruns but otherwise move to other seasons, etc). If at that point DRM had to be removed by the companies by law and the games and media go to public domain (and maybe by donation based rather than buying) we might see something quite different.
I'd be happy with that because then I'd wait those 5 years to buy the game when it becomes DRM-free.

However, game studios/publishers want their money now, so they don't want to encourage gamers to wait x years before they buy the game.

Hence the move by many in the industry to try and kill DRM-free. Their logic is: If we don't give the gamers any choice and they can thus only buy our games with DRM, then surely all those DRM-free "fanatics" will either cave-in and just buy our DRM'd games... or stop gaming... and we're 99.9% confident that won't happen... we don't think... maybe not... well, we don't care!
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timppu: - Some SNES game where the ending battle became impossible if it detected the game not being original.
That was Earthbound. To make it more evil, once the game froze in the final battle and then you reset the game, your save would be completely erased.
My definition of DRM is any parts of the product which restricts your use of the software after the point of purchase and delivery. This needs to be purposefully built to control its use, and does not includes a dependency of external factors, such as drivers, libraries or hardware (i.e. needing Windows or DirectX is not DRM, neither is needing CD-Rom, a typical GPU or indeed electricity).
Post edited July 06, 2014 by amok
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agogfan: I'd be happy with that because then I'd wait those 5 years to buy the game when it becomes DRM-free.

However, game studios/publishers want their money now, so they don't want to encourage gamers to wait x years before they buy the game.
Quite often hearing about how much fun a game is usually may be enough to make you cave and want to play it. Just because it passes into the public domain and becomes DRM-free doesn't mean the studio shouldn't get any compensation for their work, in fact lack of compensation would cause it to get extended. But we're in a day and age currently where the copyright holders (corporations) have their stuff for at least as long as we live, probably twice that. Windows 95 as an example won't become available to the public in source or anything til something like 2115, yet it's seriously out of date now and practically unusable. However many of the newer M$ OS's still base portions of their code from the 95 codebase (I've read articles on the same 'bug' present in the last 5 versions of windows involving resizing of windows or minimizing...) making large portions of newer OS's open source to a degree if the source did go to public domain.

The whole thing is too screwed over currently...
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rtcvb32: I really wonder if DRM would go away if copyright length would drop down to something like 5 years (after 5 years books aren't in print, games aren't that high on the market usually, shows may get reruns but otherwise move to other seasons, etc). If at that point DRM had to be removed by the companies by law and the games and media go to public domain (and maybe by donation based rather than buying) we might see something quite different.
Yeah, I've suggested the same that I would be fine with DRM, if I was sure it would be removed at some point by the publisher/service provider. Kind of to prevent casual copying during the critical(?) first few months of the sales, but not annoying the users with it years later.

Other alternative I sometime remember suggesting is some kind of watermarking, where there are no technical restrictions on making copies and using those copies, but any of those copies could still be tracked back to you (by the IP rights holder, not by anyone else of course).

Hence, you could freely make backup copies of the game and play it in as many machines in your household as possible, but it would be a deterrent for you to pass the copies to your friends at schools (as they might copy those copies to their friends), or share it as a torrent. Ie. if the IP rights holder downloaded such copy from the torrent, they would be able to tell who was the original owner of the license. That by itself would probably not be enough for a court case (as it is not a proof by itself you handed out the copies), but I am pretty sure it would be enough to curb e.g. casual copying to semi-friends etc., let alone sharing as torrents to total strangers.

That wouldn't restrict your usage of the product 10-20 years from now either, and at that point there probably wouldn't be anyone interested in tracking the original purchaser of the game anymore either (probably that database doesn't even exist anymore, or at least isn't in active use).

tl;dr

1. Limited time DRM.
2. Watermarking.
Post edited July 06, 2014 by timppu
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amok: My definition of DRM is any parts of the software which restricts your use of
Change software with product. Might not fit perfectly, but encompasses it better.
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amok: My definition of DRM is any parts of the software which restricts your use of
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rtcvb32: Change software with product. Might not fit perfectly, but encompasses it better.
yes, it is a better word. Cheers.