Dude we're all expressing preferences here, no one is launching a fascist takeover of the gaming industry.

I most certainly do agree, tbh, except in some cases. The more immersive the game, the more i want to break the loop within the game, so i'm not separated from the lore and the immersion, especially if i'm going to be playing at long periods. I dont' want to be thinking of the outside world and my other games while handling this.

However, keep in mind, this is separate from the objective the companies making said games have. And that's what i originally spoke to. This is where we agree, because I don't believe the companies should be manipulating me like that. I'm also not fond of how these games have us advertise them simply by us playing them, either.

On the flip side, the other side is doing the same damn thing.

I think the problem with minigames in that regard is that they're often made harder by incompetence than mainstays of a real genre. I'm immediately thinking of stealth minigames in particular, like in zelda games, contrasted with something like Metal Gear. I think there would be much less complaining if it was much more competent and if the minigames were far easier for people outside of the genre, and if the minigames had simpler rewards like 10,000 gil instead of that special weapon or outfit. That thought also crossed my mind, too. Things haven't really changed that much, and games were indeed cheaper, and games were often rented back then, too, for even more cheaper. The rental factor could very well be the other option, too.

I don't know, I could get behind a movement to slay any game designer that uses QTEs, button-mashing-sequences, rhythm-game-bits-in-otherwise-non-rhythm-games and other completely incongruous and inaccessible trash. They can turn the slaying into just a facefist if they add accessibility features to disable (autocomplete) them.

David Cage?

Here's the thing with stealth in Zelda.

In general, Zelda games are rather forgiving. You get hit by an enemy, you lose a bit of health, and you can continue. Even falling into a bottomless pit just means the loss of one heart of health and warping back to the start of the room (which is sometimes handy).

Stealth in Zelda games is not forgiving. Simply being *seen* means that you are thrown all the way back to the beginning of the stealth section. You don't even need to get hit, and yet the penalty is far more serious than the penalty of actually getting hit normally.

Furthermore, it isn't just a special weapon or outfit that's locked behind stealth; it's game progress. If you don't do the stealth section, you can't continue the game. This is especially egregrious in The Wind Waker, where you are thrown into a stealth section before you even get to the regular gameplay.

Really, Zelda would be much better without stealth.

(Stealth is why I don't replay Ocarina of Time, and why I never finished the Master Quest (Gamecube version, in case that matters).)

It wasn't really forced on you, but Xeno Card (Xenosaga Ep. 1) is still one of my favorite card collecting games. Most minigames piss me off, though. Especially the ones that are essentially player skill tests in RPGs, where the character is supposed to be the one with the skills (e.g. the Fallout 3 hacking and lockpicking), and the Grandia 2 arm wrestling game (required to continue game).

Yes, RPGs (the way I define them) should *never* have minigames that depend on player skill.

Aside from the issues mentioned otherwise, there's the accessibility issues that result: A player who can't play action games should not be prevented from completing a game that isn't supposed to be an action game because of one mandatory action segment.

Quite a few people (me included) see that as the one of the few redeeming features of the entire game - yet it was entirely absent in the sequel.

Role Playing Games are dead... they'd been blended so strongly with action and player skill test games so much that people actually think an RPG is "broken" if there is less than a 100% chance of succeeding an action. Any amount of dice rolling or RNG is now "bad" and everything needs be dictated by player skill.

So of course, the player who has only 1 lockpicking needs to be able to succeed on a 100 level lock if he has enough player skill in completing the minigame. The point of character skills is just to make the minigame easier, not to actually make your character more capable of doing the action you want.

After all, if there is any amount of RNG then the ability to repeatedly reload the game until you roll a natural 20 and auto succeed somehow affects people who use that argument to just give everyone a natural 20 and let them always win... or lock it behind a minigame.

Zelda doesn't have stealth sections. Zelda has timed movement sections which are extremely forgiving compared to any other stealth games. You can literally run right past the guards, you're just supposed to memorize the sequence that you need to go in. Given Zelda loves its puzzles, the pseudo-stealth isn't that different from everything else you do.

Compare this to actual stealth games like metal gear. This is precisely what i'm talking about. Not only that, but the mechanics for hiding are much more messed up on average. I don't know how i got through the Phantom Hourglass, to be honest. Yeah, wind waker's stealth traumatized me into not playing any real stealth games for a long, long time. I never did beat wind waker, 'cause it was a rental (i have it now, but haven't put it in the system) and i spent so much of my time on THAT part of the game. Real shame, too, 'cause I ended up liking that one. Absolutely. It's weird how they keep throwing it in the games, but it's never actually utilized for the rest of the game outside of Phantom Hourglass. Years later, though, i've come to realize this is easily the best zelda stealth. If you know how to stealth in other games, this game's stealth is ridiculously easy by comparison. The reason i don't do Master Quest is because of the water temple. I have so many zelda games i need to finish, though. Spirit track's train segments was off putting to me, so i barely progressed in that game.

I disagree. In fact, i recently bought a bunch of action games made with RPG maker. The thing is, minigames should never have special exclusive rewards for completing them. IMO, they're also a great way to help people who might be otherwise struggling with the gameplay. For an RPG, this would mean awarding money and/or exp-up-type consumable rewards for top prizes, and normal consumables (potions, phoenix downs, etc) for lower rewards. You should never feel obligated to play a minigame.

No, that's not true, especially if you haven't spent the time to learn the section. Furthermore, in most cases, there is no indication of where you can and can't safely stand, so it feels like you have to avoid invisible instant death bullets, which does not make for fun gameplay. These sections are incredibly frustrating and actually ruined the series for me (except the early games and Majora's Mask; in the latter case, the first stealth section is easy (and at night you can see where it's not safe), and the second one can be trivialized with the Stone Mask (you don't get caught even if you talk to one of the guards)).

The Alliance Alive has a stealth section, but you can choose to skip it. The penalty for skipping it is that the next part of the game will be longer and harder, but you can skip *that* as well by dying, negating the penalty entirely. On the other hand, the following section, which is where the notorious difficulty spike is, can't be skipped entirely; you can make decisions to shorten it, but you'll get less treasure, and the boss will be just as hard.

The Water Temple is my favorite part of Ocarina of Time, and the Master Quest version, IIRC, was a bit disappointing, actually. It was also disappointing that the later dungeons, including the final mini-dungeon which is supposed to be a recap of the game, had absolutely no water in them. (Couldn't there have been at least a little? The final mini-dungeon *really* should have had a water section about the size of the other sections in it.)

I guess it's because I play real stealth games and enjoy them, but I can't say I recall any Zelda having a stealth section that was more than a short and extremely forgiving lark.

Agreed. Anyone who thinks Zelda's timed running sections are hard probably hasn't played an actual stealth game. When I do Zelda, I don't even bother looking at the guards, I just memorize the pattern... and once you get it then well, even a 6 year old can beat the game.

Zelda's version of stealth is basically just a puzzle, and if you can solve the dungeon puzzles on your own then you can do Zelda's stealth. Yes, you'll fail a few times, but the entire point is you fail a little, figure out how to progress further, then just run all the way to the goal.

Wind Waker as well as Phantom Hourglass.

Even easier is to point out he described a stealth section while denying it's a stealth section. Reminds me of Call of Duty. They ruined the series by taking the health bars away, so with the super healing mechanic, the only way to introduce difficulty was insta-death snipers. Thanks for the heads up on this game. I think it could've been done much better. I mean, i figure if i took the time to learn it (not something I want to do), it could be totally enjoyable, i'm sure, but the issue with water temples in LoZ games is that usually people don't come for mazes and puzzles centered on backtracking, which is essentially what manipulating water levels is. It's not all that unlike the complaints about minigames, really. I signed up for a simple adventure with light puzzles, not trying to mass manage a temple where getting orentation down is a challenge let alone remember where each thing in the temple is. And it's often not clear what you can and can't do.
There are often parts with blind spots. Once again, though, this is not what we sign up for when we play zelda games. I play Metal Gear, and the rules don't fit at all. And see what i mean, dtgreene? He admits right here it's a stealth section while denying it at the same time.